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So, why did Adam require the breath of God to activate him into becoming a living soul? But anyway, since 'the soul' apparently doesn't actually die, the Good News that Jesus actually died and rose from the dead on the third day is a myth? It would appear that He didn't suffer death at all as we've for so long been led to believe. Apparently, we're to believe that Jesus was alive and well as He presumably wandered around in some 'holding bay' for three days preaching to the millions and millions and millions of 'previously dead but still alive' people who had been 'hanging around' for millennia waiting for something to happen. Is it just me or does this story sound like something that might come from an episode of the Twilight Zone series?
Where does this come from? Certainly not from scripture. Coming from one's imagination springs to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
It comes from putting two passages of scripture together!
Jesus told the thief on the Cross, today you shall be with me in paradise. No doubt the thief was about to die and go to paradise. He accepted Christ.
One more time. Paradise is synonymous with heaven ...regardless of the fanciful man-made theology that states differently. Jesus didn't ascend to heaven that day. Nor did the thief. In fact Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until many days later. Even HAD someone recorded the words of Jesus as He hung on the cross or spoke to God alone in the garden, to take what Jesus allegedly said and build a theology around it that blatantly contradicts many previous scriptures is not wise. However, it IS rather typical of present-day Christianity so there really are no surprises.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
In the other passage of scripture we find where paradise was, Abraham's bosom, where the beggar also went after death.
The PARABLE of the Rich Man and Lazarus CANNOT be used for the purpose you're wanting to use it for because it has NOTHING to do with the state of the dead! You clearly don't understand what Jesus was getting across to His Jewish audience. Jesus was NOT speaking to we of today at all! You have to be Jewish to understand it or otherwise have it explained to you as "I" had it explained to me. Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss this particular parable. Or, there may already be an existing one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
Begin reading in Luke 16:19, and you will see the compartment, so to speak, that he spoke of.
Charlie, you're speaking a lot of nonsense even though you don't realize this. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not about what you think it is.
One more time. Paradise is synonymous with heaven ...regardless of the fanciful man-made theology that states differently. Jesus didn't ascend to heaven that day. Nor did the thief. In fact Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until many days later. Even HAD someone recorded the words of Jesus as He hung on the cross or spoke to God alone in the garden, to take what Jesus allegedly said and build a theology around it that blatantly contradicts many previous scriptures is not wise. However, it IS rather typical of present-day Christianity so there really are no surprises.
The PARABLE of the Rich Man and Lazarus CANNOT be used for the purpose you're wanting to use it for because it has NOTHING to do with the state of the dead! You clearly don't understand what Jesus was getting across to His Jewish audience. Jesus was NOT speaking to we of today at all! You have to be Jewish to understand it or otherwise have it explained to you as "I" had it explained to me. Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss this particular parable. Or, there may already be an existing one.
Charlie, you're speaking a lot of nonsense even though you don't realize this. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not about what you think it is.
I can only lead the mule to the water, can't make him drink.
Well, tell that to the authors of the two or three score places in the Bible that equate death to sleep. Reading these scriptures and my assuming that the authors knew what they were talking about is the only reason that I accept this notion. Otherwise, if not for the scriptures, I'd be in a position of accepting or rejecting the cockamamy theories that come from the imaginations of men as much of Christianity does. Then again, knowing myself fairly well, I'd likely give a shrug and a yawn and not really give a damn one way or the other.
old Israeli Rabbis came up with idea of 50 Gates of understanding of understanding of the Bible it is a way what Christ Jesus said in Matthew 13 except one can affect level of understanding one's in by climbing 'learning and practicing stairway'. The Bible is written therefore on many levels of understanding starting with literal on surface level. Of course knowing their ancient level is very helpful tool, alas. I had a dream (years ago) suggesting to seriously treat any idea of a learner, not accepting but treating it a possibility...i have limitations of my own level. 12"For to the one who has, more will be given," 14"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."
Bible is not a cast in stone block but learning/teaching tool to prompt our own 'research' based on our own intuition.
I can only lead the mule to the water, can't make him drink.
You asked where it came from and I showed you!
I am presently dealing with a malignant narcissist in court, who claims to be a Christian fundamentalist the same as you. And he does the same thing - copies what other say in an attempt to sound more intelligent. He has absolutely no originality - and is nothing but a compulsive liar - believing he is in control ...the resemblance is uncanny! He is an embarrassment to the judicial process, constantly offending the judge with his nonsense.
Again, paradise was not in heaven until after the cross. Before the cross paradise was a compartment of Hades. Abraham's bosom is a Jewish idiom referring to paradise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Where does this come from? Certainly not from scripture. Coming from one's imagination springs to mind.
I think he stole that little jewel from charlie as it was from charlie i first heard this nonsense of paradise moving from hell to heaven.
Well i guess it is like the old saying, I call them as I see them and if I don't see them I make them up.
Again, paradise was not in heaven until after the cross. Before the cross paradise was a compartment of Hades. Abraham's bosom is a Jewish idiom referring to paradise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Where does this come from? Certainly not from scripture. Coming from one's imagination springs to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
I think he stole that little jewel from Charlie as it was from Charlie I first heard this nonsense of paradise moving from hell to heaven.
Well i guess it is like the old saying, I call them as I see them and if I don't see them I make them up.
The 'New Covenant' appears to be used in a rather comical manner by many rather like that of a 'new and improved' soap powder brand commercial. It would appear that the belief of some is that, prior to the cross 'death' meant one's being transported and held in a holding bay along with millions of other zombies, some having been there for thousands of years, apparently 'hanging around' awaiting judgment from the Almighty.
Since the cross, however, it would appear that many believe that a 'new and improved after death' experience awaits the righteous where they are now transported immediately to heaven - or hell for the wicked - rather than to the former but now obsolete holding bay which was determined by God to be 'rather outdated' and required an upgrade.
Crazy stuff - and this is where it becomes a concern - that even otherwise intelligent people actually believe!
The 'New Covenant' appears to be used in a rather comical manner by many rather like that of a 'new and improved' soap powder brand commercial. It would appear that the belief of some is that, prior to the cross 'death' meant one's being transported and held in a holding bay along with millions of other zombies, some having been there for thousands of years, apparently 'hanging around' awaiting judgment from the Almighty.
Since the cross, however, it would appear that many believe that a 'new and improved after death' experience awaits the righteous where they are now transported immediately to heaven - or hell for the wicked - rather than to the former but now obsolete holding bay which was determined by God to be 'rather outdated' and required an upgrade.
Crazy stuff - and this is where it becomes a concern - that even otherwise intelligent people actually believe!
I wouldn't be talking about the intelligence of other people if I were you when you yourself are utterly incapable of understanding that physical death does NOT mean that the soul ceases to exist which is made clear in the New Testament.
The true Holy of holies is in heaven and was represented by the Holy of holies in the Temple. Prior to the cross no one was allowed into the Holy of holies in heaven as was the case with the Holy of holies in the Temple. Only the high priest was allowed to enter into it, and then only once a year on the Day of Atonement. At the moment that Jesus died the curtain in the Temple that separated the Holy of holies from the rest of the Temple was torn from top to bottom by God himself signifying that God himself had torn down the barrier between God and man and that heaven was now accessible to man. Prior to that, as Jesus himself said, ''No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man'' (John 3:13).
Before that, everyone went to Sheol and that was a part of Jewish theology as stated in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
SHEOL ():
''Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life.'' [Bolding mine]
I wouldn't be talking about the intelligence of other people if I were you when you yourself are utterly incapable of understanding that physical death does NOT mean that the soul ceases to exist which is made clear in the New Testament.
So, what you are saying is that death is not death at all since the 'actual being' is conscious in some form or another and can still see, hear, speak and make decisions ...correct? And this is scriptural? Did Jesus not actually die, Michael, but remain conscious throughout His 3 day experience 'in the grave'? If so, why are Christians taught what appears to be a falsehood in that Jesus suffered a horrible death but, happily, rose from the dead 3 days later?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
The true Holy of holies is in heaven and was represented by the Holy of holies in the Temple. Prior to the cross no one was allowed into the Holy of holies in heaven as was the case with the Holy of holies in the Temple. Only the high priest was allowed to enter into it, and then only once a year on the Day of Atonement. At the moment that Jesus died the curtain in the Temple that separated the Holy of holies from the rest of the Temple was torn from top to bottom by God himself signifying that God himself had torn down the barrier between God and man and that heaven was now accessible to man. Prior to that, as Jesus himself said, ''No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man'' (John 3:13).
Before that, everyone went to Sheol and that was a part of Jewish theology as stated in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
SHEOL ():
''Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life.'' [Bolding mine]
So, the 'righteous dead' from Adam onward are presently in Heaven waiting to have their breath returned to their bodies that still remain in the graves? So, what is the point of a resurrection that even buddy Paul states WILL occur? How do you reconcile your belief with the resurrection process on the last day? Is there some other fanciful man-made belief that conveniently answers this question? What about 'the lost', Michael . . .are they presently suffering the torments of hell-fire?
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