Where do we go when we die? The Afterlife by Dr Michael Heiser (after life, belief)
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Already addressed in the last part of my post #48. Immediately Jesus commended His 'spirit' (breath) into His Father's hands He 'gave up his breath' and died. Our disagreement appears to come from this idea that 'the spirit' is something other than 'the breath of life'. Nowhere in scripture are we told this.
Anyway, I'll leave the rest of you to sort this out for yourselves.
There are a lot of things the Bible doesn't spell out in minute detail, but which, when you put them all together, lead some people to certain conclusions. It goes without saying that they don't lead all people to the same conclusions. But you are right, I do believe the spirit to be more than merely "the breath of life," and that's probably why we'll never be able to see eye to eye on this particular issue. I see references to the "spirit" as being the non-physical part of us that enables us to connect with the divine, that is the essence of our individuality. I'd go through the Bible and find a couple of dozen references to the "spirit" that clearly indicate that its ability to give us life is only part of what it is, but would my efforts make any difference whatsoever? I kind of doubt it.
There are a lot of things the Bible doesn't spell out in minute detail, but which, when you put them all together, lead some people to certain conclusions. It goes without saying that they don't lead all people to the same conclusions. But you are right, I do believe the spirit to be more than merely "the breath of life," and that's probably why we'll never be able to see eye to eye on this particular issue. I see references to the "spirit" as being the non-physical part of us that enables us to connect with the divine, that is the essence of our individuality. I'd go through the Bible and find a couple of dozen references to the "spirit" that clearly indicate that its ability to give us life is only part of what it is, but would my efforts make any difference whatsoever? I kind of doubt it.
do not forget purges of the Bible. the winner always purges records.
Below I've picked out just a few of 36-plus passages of scripture where death equates to sleep:
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This ^ is referring to the resurrection on the last day.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
Here ^ Jesus is talking of 'sleep' as in 'death'
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This ^ refers to those in their graves who have gone no place else between death and resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Though the language is awkward (but then, ancient Greek to English, so to be expected) this passage is saying that God's plan is for Jesus to bring with Him to Heaven the righteous who were previously 'sleeping' in their graves.
Once again, folks ..."I" didn't write the Bible and "I" am not responsible for the plan laid out by God as to how He deals with the after-life situation.
There are a lot of things the Bible doesn't spell out in minute detail, but which, when you put them all together, lead some people to certain conclusions. It goes without saying that they don't lead all people to the same conclusions. But you are right, I do believe the spirit to be more than merely "the breath of life," and that's probably why we'll never be able to see eye to eye on this particular issue. I see references to the "spirit" as being the non-physical part of us that enables us to connect with the divine, that is the essence of our individuality. I'd go through the Bible and find a couple of dozen references to the "spirit" that clearly indicate that its ability to give us life is only part of what it is, but would my efforts make any difference whatsoever? I kind of doubt it.
Kat, if you went through your Bible and found ANY reference to 'the spirit' as being anything other than what I've stated the Bible consistently refers it as being then I would have to accept this. Despite what some may think I'm not playing a game of 'one-upmanship'.
Below I've picked out just a few of 36-plus passages of scripture where death equates to sleep:
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This ^ is referring to the resurrection on the last day.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
Here ^ Jesus is talking of 'sleep' as in 'death'
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This ^ refers to those in their graves who have gone no place else between death and resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Though the language is awkward (but then, ancient Greek to English, so to be expected) this passage is saying that God's plan is for Jesus to bring with Him to Heaven the righteous who were previously 'sleeping' in their graves.
Once again, folks ..."I" didn't write the Bible and "I" am not responsible for the plan laid out by God as to how He deals with the after-life situation.
Get over yourself. You can't even conceive that you might be wrong in your understanding of what you think the Bible says about the afterlife situation in light of the fact that main stream Christianity understands that the Bible shows that the soul does not sleep or ceases to exist.
Good grief. The fact that the Hebrew Bible records the fact that the Hebrews were prohibited from attempts to contact the dead ought to tell you something. And King Saul did consult with a medium anyway to contact the dead prophet Samuel which according to 1 Samuel chapter 28 is exactly what happened. God apparently stepped in and caused it to happen since the medium couldn't actually bring up Samuel. Necromancers were usually in league with demonic entities who could pretend to be the dead person that some person wanted to contact. On this occasion God intervened and brought the spirit of Samuel up from Sheol. And no, this isn't poetry or symbolic language. It is being presented as history.
The Bible has to be understood in its ancient Near Eastern context. And in that context the dead were thought to have continued existence in some form or other in the underworld. Everyone went to Sheol without any moral attachments to the belief. It was simply where the dead went. Period.
Furthermore, Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23 make a distinction between the body, soul, and spirit while Matthew 10:28 makes a distinction between the body and soul. And Peter in 2 Peter 1:14-15 knowing that he is about to die speaks of departing from and laying aside his earthly dwelling (his body). That is not language implying that Peter thinks he will cease to exist or lie soul sleep in the grave.
But we both know that you will ignore all of this and keep spouting your lack of understanding concerning the afterlife.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-07-2021 at 07:44 PM..
Below I've picked out just a few of 36-plus passages of scripture where death equates to sleep:
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This ^ is referring to the resurrection on the last day.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
Here ^ Jesus is talking of 'sleep' as in 'death'
Acts 7:60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:6
After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This ^ refers to those in their graves who have gone no place else between death and resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Though the language is awkward (but then, ancient Greek to English, so to be expected) this passage is saying that God's plan is for Jesus to bring with Him to Heaven the righteous who were previously 'sleeping' in their graves.
Once again, folks ..."I" didn't write the Bible and "I" am not responsible for the plan laid out by God as to how He deals with the after-life situation.
Human, Anthropos, is a complex construction, some parts belong to material world some parts belong to spiritual world, some mortal some not. What is a point to keep immortal part in a grave? God said to Earth let us create human being and it is mortal material body containing immortal spirit of God - Gen 1. Ecc. 12:7 illustrates that nicely.
Human, Anthropos, is a complex construction, some parts belong to material world some parts belong to spiritual world, some mortal some not. What is a point to keep immortal part in a grave? God said to Earth let us create human being and it is mortal material body containing immortal spirit of God - Gen 1. Ecc. 12:7 illustrates that nicely.
Kat, if you went through your Bible and found ANY reference to 'the spirit' as being anything other than what I've stated the Bible consistently refers it as being then I would have to accept this. Despite what some may think I'm not playing a game of 'one-upmanship'.
Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled.
Was his "breath" troubled?
1 Samuel 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit.
Was her breath sorrowful?
1 Kings 21:5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?
Was his breath sad?
Psalm 106:33 Because they provoked his spirit, so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.
Did they provoke his breath?
I'm not playing games either. I just disagree with you that "spirit" means "breath" and nothing more. Psalms is not that far into the Bible. I can go on and on and on, but I think it's probably pointless.
Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled.
Was his "breath" troubled?
1 Samuel 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit.
Was her breath sorrowful?
1 Kings 21:5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?
Was his breath sad?
Psalm 106:33 Because they provoked his spirit, so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.
Did they provoke his breath?
I'm not playing games either. I just disagree with you that "spirit" means "breath" and nothing more. Psalms is not that far into the Bible. I can go on and on and on, but I think it's probably pointless.
Even if Romulus doesn’t get what you are getting at, it is making sense to me and may be helping others come to conclusions as well .... so not pointless as such
I quite often follow the meanings of words through Scripture and see where and how they are used, it can help with getting a feel for the relationships between things, concepts, etc
Too soon to rep
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