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So, what you are saying is that death is not death at all since the 'actual being' is conscious in some form or another and can still see, hear, speak and make decisions ...correct? And this is scriptural? Did Jesus not actually die, Michael, but remain conscious throughout His 3 day experience 'in the grave'? If so, why are Christians taught what appears to be a falsehood in that Jesus suffered a horrible death but, happily, rose from the dead 3 days later?
This has already been addressed.
Quote:
So, the 'righteous dead' from Adam onward are presently in Heaven waiting to have their breath returned to their bodies that still remain in the graves? So, what is the point of a resurrection that even buddy Paul states WILL occur? How do you reconcile your belief with the resurrection process on the last day? Is there some other fanciful man-made belief that conveniently answers this question? What about 'the lost', Michael . . .are they presently suffering the torments of hell-fire?
You've already been told that there is an intermediate state between physical death and resurrection.
I don't know if you're simply unable to understand any of this or if you're trolling. But I've spent more than enough time explaining all of this to you. My time and my patience have limits. We're done.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-13-2021 at 10:37 AM..
Since Christianity has come up with some fictitious intermediary 'holding bay' where 'the dead' are still conscious and have the ability to see, hear, speak and make decisions it must be awful confusing to many to then grasp the biblical concept of 'death'.
So, how do we get around this? Well, when the Bible takes a term such as 'day' (another bone of contention among Christians) it first establishes what the term literally means. The literal definition of 'day' has already been established in Genesis (the 12-hour morning and the 12-hour evening) as a literal 24-hour period. Jesus later said (John 11:9) "Are there not 12 hours of daylight?" We can logically assume from that statement that there are also 12 hours of darkness. So, a period of 24-hours.
So, we know that 'day' has been established as a 24-hour period from the very start, i.e. Genesis. However, 'day' in other parts of the Bible may be used in prophetic terms such as the 'day for a year' principle (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6). Does this cause confusion? Apparently it does since mainstream Christianity can't seem to come to terms with what is literal and what is prophetic ...even though 'day' has already been given a literal definition from the start. If any 'religion' is messed up then 'Christianity' would surely come close to making the top of the list.
So, what is the definition of 'dead' according to the Bible? Well, we're given an established literal definition as to what death is that tallies with OUR common belief of death. Dead means precisely what dead means ...no further explanation is really necessary. Does the Bible later deviate from this definition of the state of the dead? Well, not actually but in the minds of some they HAVE given death a different meaning to 'dead' based on how their mind operates relating to certain scriptures. Right now one of the offending scriptures on which this notion that the dead are not dead is based predominantly on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, presently under discussion on another thread.
And so, while I have my doubts that an actual entity by the name of Satan actually exists I AM sticking to what the Bible has to say about the subject. And, according to scripture, Satan said, "You shall not surely die." Since then, many, even sincere Christians, believe that when you die, you aren't really dead but are still alive in some holding bay along with millions of other lost souls, able to see, hear and communicate with others. According to this belief some have been waiting in this state for thousands of years wandering around aimlessly like something from a zombie movie. Is THIS scriptural? Would it even pass a logical reasoning test?
When the Christian message goes out that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead 3-days later we know that this is a false teaching if we subscribe to the 'holding bay' doctrine. And NO, Michael, you have not satisfactorily explained yourself on this matter.
Since Christianity has come up with some fictitious intermediary 'holding bay' where 'the dead' are still conscious and have the ability to see, hear, speak and make decisions it must be awful confusing to many to then grasp the biblical concept of 'death'.
So, how do we get around this? Well, when the Bible takes a term such as 'day' (another bone of contention among Christians) it first establishes what the term literally means. The literal definition of 'day' has already been established in Genesis (the 12-hour morning and the 12-hour evening) as a literal 24-hour period. Jesus later said (John 11:9) "Are there not 12 hours of daylight?" We can logically assume from that statement that there are also 12 hours of darkness. So, a period of 24-hours.
So, we know that 'day' has been established as a 24-hour period from the very start, i.e. Genesis. However, 'day' in other parts of the Bible may be used in prophetic terms such as the 'day for a year' principle (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6). Does this cause confusion? Apparently it does since mainstream Christianity can't seem to come to terms with what is literal and what is prophetic ...even though 'day' has already been given a literal definition from the start. If any 'religion' is messed up then 'Christianity' would surely come close to making the top of the list.
Hi Rom I disagree day in Gen. is speaking of a 24hr period. Gen defines what a day is as it says a days is an evening and a morning. Most jump to the conclusion that that means a 24hr period but does not our own world tell us that an evening and a morning can be longer then 24hrs? sure it does. the Antarctica has six months of daylight in its summer and six months of darkness in winter.
Quote:
So, what is the definition of 'dead' according to the Bible? Well, we're given an established literal definition as to what death is that tallies with OUR common belief of death. Dead means precisely what dead means ...no further explanation is really necessary. Does the Bible later deviate from this definition of the state of the dead? Well, not actually but in the minds of some they HAVE given death a different meaning to 'dead' based on how their mind operates relating to certain scriptures. Right now one of the offending scriptures on which this notion that the dead are not dead is based predominantly on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, presently under discussion on another thread.
And so, while I have my doubts that an actual entity by the name of Satan actually exists I AM sticking to what the Bible has to say about the subject. And, according to scripture, Satan said, "You shall not surely die." Since then, many, even sincere Christians, believe that when you die, you aren't really dead but are still alive in some holding bay along with millions of other lost souls, able to see, hear and communicate with others. According to this belief some have been waiting in this state for thousands of years wandering around aimlessly like something from a zombie movie. Is THIS scriptural? Would it even pass a logical reasoning test?
When the Christian message goes out that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead 3-days later we know that this is a false teaching if we subscribe to the 'holding bay' doctrine. And NO, Michael, you have not satisfactorily explained yourself on this matter.
Well yes an no. Dead does not have to mean the end of physical life, as we are told that people are dead in trespasses and sin. You can't put everything in the same little box you have to be able to discern the difference.
The same goes with the spirit, you say it is only in reference to our breath of life but it is so much more then that.
The word breath here comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
the breath of life is the birth of Christ within us.
What did Paul mean by "being absent in the body" in 2 Corinthians 5 verse 8?
From this ONE verse there has sprung a doctrine that completely contradicts the many other scriptures that 1. refer to death as a metaphorical 'sleep', and 2. tell us that the dead will remain in their graves until the resurrection that will occur at Jesus' return. There is absolutely no biblical passage of scripture that would give any of us reason to dispute this. However, people being people take it on themselves to conjure up biblical support for a widely accepted, though erroneous, doctrine. Moreover, they attempt to do so with just ONE verse from the Bible, a verse that DOES NOT support their erroneous doctrine anyway. Such is the case with Paul's quote in 2 Corinthians 5:8. Please read the below:
Whenever we analyze Scripture in an attempt to ascertain its meaning, it is important that we follow a specific set of rules for interpretation. These rules of interpretation are referred to as hermeneutics, and they are essentially an agreed-upon set of guidelines that help us to interpret Scripture accurately and consistently.
Hermeneutics includes analysis of the following (as well as a lot more I don't have space to cover):
As a result when you examine a specific scripture, such as 2 Corinthians 5:8, it is impossible to accurately interpret the meaning without properly analyzing the scriptural context of the passage itself, as well as that passage within the context of the entire book of 2 Corinthians.
Second Corinthians 5:1-10 states:
"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (emphasis added).
First, it’s important to recognize that the chapter and verse divisions that we see in our Bibles today were originally established by Robert Estienne in the 16th century. They were not a part of the original epistle sent to the Corinthian church. Therefore, the breaks we see in 2 Corinthians don’t necessarily represent the original author’s paragraph breaks.
If we examine the overall context, the passage that starts chapter 5 refers back to the concepts that are outlined in chapter 4.
Taking a quick look at the underlying concepts in the latter half of 2 Corinthians 4, we can see that Paul is discussing the idea of the temporal nature of this life. He explains that the difficulties and struggles of this life, therefore, are also temporary, and that there is a hope found in the promise of the resurrection (as stated in 2 Corinthians 4:14). "We can take heart as Christians, because He who raised Jesus Christ, will also raise us up by Jesus, and will present us to Him" (2 Corinthians 4:14). Paul goes on, to paraphrase, that it is important that as the outward man diminishes (perishes little by little each day) the inward man must be renewed (the transformation of our lives through Christ Jesus). As a result, our focus should be on the things not seen—the spiritual things—not on the physical things which we can see.
And that leads into the concepts outlined in 2 Corinthians 5.
The apostle Paul was a tentmaker by trade and understood tents. Tents by nature are temporary dwellings, not meant to be a permanent structure that is to be set up forever and ever. They serve their temporary purpose, and then they are taken down.
When this "earthly tent" is destroyed—when the physical life we have is over—we have a building from God: a house not made with hands, but instead eternal in the heavens. Paul references the resurrection and the transformation to Spirit he discusses in other letters he wrote: 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
He then begins to discuss the groaning and yearning that we have for this permanent home in the Kingdom of God. We are burdened in this life, and we groan at its difficulties and struggles. We don’t desire to have our life taken from us, but instead desire to be clothed in life, to obtain eternal life in the Kingdom of God.
However, in order for that to happen, whether we die or are transformed at Christ's return, we must be separated from this physical life, this tent. While we are in this physical life, we are absent from the Lord, from the eternal life in His Kingdom that he has promised. We are able to remain confident in this promise of eternal life, because it is given by God (Hebrews 6:17-20).
This hope of the resurrection anchors us.
Paul goes on to say that as a result of all of this, we can be well pleased in death. We don’t have to look at death as something to fear, or something that is devastating. Instead we can be well pleased to be absent from this earthly tent, and in the next instant of our consciousness be present with the Lord after the resurrection. Because we will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, either in this life (1 Peter 4:17) or after the resurrection (Revelation 20:11-13), it is important to live a life that is well pleasing to him.
We can take the writings of the apostle Paul in this particular passage of 2 Corinthians 5, and take heart in the words he conveys. They are hopeful and a promise that we can be certain our Great God will keep.
What did Paul mean by "being absent in the body" in 2 Corinthians 5 verse 8?
From this ONE verse there has sprung a doctrine that completely contradicts the many other scriptures that 1. refer to death as a metaphorical 'sleep', and 2. tell us that the dead will remain in their graves until the resurrection that will occur at Jesus' return. There is absolutely no biblical passage of scripture that would give any of us reason to dispute this. However, people being people take it on themselves to conjure up biblical support for a widely accepted, though erroneous, doctrine. Moreover, they attempt to do so with just ONE verse from the Bible, a verse that DOES NOT support their erroneous doctrine anyway. Such is the case with Paul's quote in 2 Corinthians 5:8. Please read the below:
Whenever we analyze Scripture in an attempt to ascertain its meaning, it is important that we follow a specific set of rules for interpretation. These rules of interpretation are referred to as hermeneutics, and they are essentially an agreed-upon set of guidelines that help us to interpret Scripture accurately and consistently.
Hermeneutics includes analysis of the following (as well as a lot more I don't have space to cover):
As a result when you examine a specific scripture, such as 2 Corinthians 5:8, it is impossible to accurately interpret the meaning without properly analyzing the scriptural context of the passage itself, as well as that passage within the context of the entire book of 2 Corinthians.
Second Corinthians 5:1-10 states:
"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (emphasis added).
First, it’s important to recognize that the chapter and verse divisions that we see in our Bibles today were originally established by Robert Estienne in the 16th century. They were not a part of the original epistle sent to the Corinthian church. Therefore, the breaks we see in 2 Corinthians don’t necessarily represent the original author’s paragraph breaks.
If we examine the overall context, the passage that starts chapter 5 refers back to the concepts that are outlined in chapter 4.
Taking a quick look at the underlying concepts in the latter half of 2 Corinthians 4, we can see that Paul is discussing the idea of the temporal nature of this life. He explains that the difficulties and struggles of this life, therefore, are also temporary, and that there is a hope found in the promise of the resurrection (as stated in 2 Corinthians 4:14). "We can take heart as Christians, because He who raised Jesus Christ, will also raise us up by Jesus, and will present us to Him" (2 Corinthians 4:14). Paul goes on, to paraphrase, that it is important that as the outward man diminishes (perishes little by little each day) the inward man must be renewed (the transformation of our lives through Christ Jesus). As a result, our focus should be on the things not seen—the spiritual things—not on the physical things which we can see.
And that leads into the concepts outlined in 2 Corinthians 5.
The apostle Paul was a tentmaker by trade and understood tents. Tents by nature are temporary dwellings, not meant to be a permanent structure that is to be set up forever and ever. They serve their temporary purpose, and then they are taken down.
When this "earthly tent" is destroyed—when the physical life we have is over—we have a building from God: a house not made with hands, but instead eternal in the heavens. Paul references the resurrection and the transformation to Spirit he discusses in other letters he wrote: 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
He then begins to discuss the groaning and yearning that we have for this permanent home in the Kingdom of God. We are burdened in this life, and we groan at its difficulties and struggles. We don’t desire to have our life taken from us, but instead desire to be clothed in life, to obtain eternal life in the Kingdom of God.
However, in order for that to happen, whether we die or are transformed at Christ's return, we must be separated from this physical life, this tent. While we are in this physical life, we are absent from the Lord, from the eternal life in His Kingdom that he has promised. We are able to remain confident in this promise of eternal life, because it is given by God (Hebrews 6:17-20).
This hope of the resurrection anchors us.
Paul goes on to say that as a result of all of this, we can be well pleased in death. We don’t have to look at death as something to fear, or something that is devastating. Instead we can be well pleased to be absent from this earthly tent, and in the next instant of our consciousness be present with the Lord after the resurrection. Because we will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, either in this life (1 Peter 4:17) or after the resurrection (Revelation 20:11-13), it is important to live a life that is well pleasing to him.
We can take the writings of the apostle Paul in this particular passage of 2 Corinthians 5, and take heart in the words he conveys. They are hopeful and a promise that we can be certain our Great God will keep.
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