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So what you're saying is that you do believe that it is right and just for evil to be punished...
We do not have a choice as mere humans to maintain some semblance of social order since some humans do respond to punishment as a deterrent to committing secular evil. The threat of it can be useful to human society which makes having it necessary to confirm the threat. God's spiritual order has no such need as the spiritual consequences are self-inflicted.
We do not have a choice as mere humans to maintain some semblance of social order since some humans do respond to punishment as a deterrent to committing secular evil. The threat of it can be useful to human society which makes having it necessary to confirm the threat. God's spiritual order has no such need as the spiritual consequences are self-inflicted.
So it's purely pragmatic then, it's not a matter of justice?
We do not have a choice as mere humans to maintain some semblance of social order since some humans do respond to punishment as a deterrent to committing secular evil. The threat of it can be useful to human society which makes having it necessary to confirm the threat. God's spiritual order has no such need as the spiritual consequences are self-inflicted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
So it's purely pragmatic then, it's not a matter of justice?
Justice is a human construct that we aspire to but have little ability to create. Only God has the capacity to establish what we would like justice to be and it does not involve punishment. However, self-inflicted consequences are sure to exist to balance the scales for all involved. I like to imagine the existence of both negative consequences for perpetrators of evil and positive consequences for the sufferers of evil.
We were unwilling to be lowered into this vanity, which was a type of "death" in itself. BUT, we were lowered anyway, with Christ in you, the hope of glory. The goal in this life, is to be willing to "die" (lay down your soulish life) for Him. He didn't want a creation that loved Him without the experience of knowing something other than love, without the possibility of choice.
We were unwilling to be lowered into this vanity, which was a type of "death" in itself. BUT, we were lowered anyway, with Christ in you, the hope of glory. The goal in this life, is to be willing to "die" (lay down your soulish life) for Him. He didn't want a creation that loved Him without the experience of knowing something other than love, without the possibility of choice.
The goal in this life, is to be willing to "die" (lay down your soulish life) for Him? Martyrism?
There is no justice in wrath, just vengeance which is an entirely HUMAN psychological weakness. It has no place in God. That is why he told us to abandon our desire for vengeance and leave it to Him.
You just contradicted yourself.
If vengeance is to be left up to God, then there is vengeance in God; otherwise there is no vengeance.
Yet, God says,
Rom 12:19, Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
There is no justice in wrath, just vengeance which is an entirely HUMAN psychological weakness. It has no place in God. That is why he told us to abandon our desire for vengeance and leave it to Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
You just contradicted yourself.
If vengeance is to be left up to God, then there is vengeance in God; otherwise there is no vengeance.
Yet, God says, Rom 12:19, Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
That is the point. God does not want vengeance, period! WE exact vengeance. God does not. That is why He does not want us to seek it. He "repays" with true justice. We will reap EXACTLY whatever we sow, EXACTLY, no more and no less. But it is self-inflicted consequences, NOT a punishment imposed by God. Besides, God can do what we cannot, balance the scales for the victims of evil as well.
That is the point. God does not want vengeance, period! WE exact vengeance. God does not. That is why He does not want us to seek it. He "repays" with true justice. We will reap EXACTLY whatever we sow, EXACTLY, no more and no less. But it is self-inflicted consequences, NOT a punishment imposed by God. Besides, God can do what we cannot, balance the scales for the victims of evil as well.
Yep
And that is what this means
1Ti 1:7**Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8**But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9**Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10**For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11**According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Law is a necessary thing in society and comes into being when the situations develop that need it
The Scriptures are not about the individual independent of society, it is about relational societal things, and ultimately about the reforming of “man” “Adam”
1Co 15:19**If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20**But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21**For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22**For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23**But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24**Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25**For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26**The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27**For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28**And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
That is the point. God does not want vengeance, period! WE exact vengeance. God does not. That is why He does not want us to seek it. He "repays" with true justice. We will reap EXACTLY whatever we sow, EXACTLY, no more and no less. But it is self-inflicted consequences, NOT a punishment imposed by God. Besides, God can do what we cannot, balance the scales for the victims of evil as well.
Vengeance belongs to God; therefore He will be the One to exact it on those who are deserving of it.
It does not say in that scripture that God will not exact vengeance, but that He will do so.
That is the point. God does not want vengeance, period! WE exact vengeance. God does not. That is why He does not want us to seek it. He "repays" with true justice. We will reap EXACTLY whatever we sow, EXACTLY, no more and no less. But it is self-inflicted consequences, NOT a punishment imposed by God. Besides, God can do what we cannot, balance the scales for the victims of evil as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
Vengeance belongs to God; therefore He will be the One to exact it on those who are deserving of it.
It does not say in that scripture that God will not exact vengeance, but that He will do so.
You choose to read it that way because you see God as wrathful and vengeful whereas I see God as agape love as Jesus presented and unambiguously demonstrated Him to be.
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