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So, he is able to predetermine what will happen based on his foreknowledge of the events, including the resurrection, after he was turned over by ungodly men?
Yes. God's foreknowledge doesn't make anything certain but recognizes what is certain. Therefore God can work his plan to its desired conclusion.
So then are you saying that you don't believe Peter in Acts 2:23 when he said that Jesus was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God to godless men who nailed him to a cross?
Despite the fact that Jesus being put on the cross was the predetermined plan of God you deny that it was by the Father's will that Jesus was crucified?
And even though Jesus himself said that it was the Father's will for Jesus to go to the cross in Matthew 26:39,41 you won't accept that it was the Father's plan for Jesus to be delivered over to godless men so that he would be crucified?
And are you denying that despite being stated in Isaiah 53:10 that the LORD was pleased to crush Him (Jesus), putting him to grief, if he would render himself as a guilt offering that God the Father's plan was for Jesus to die on that cross?
I agree with those scriptures mike, but understand them from a whole different perspective.
And I think everyone on this thread is missing what those scriptures are actually telling us.
Was it Gods predetermined plan for Jesus to go to the cross? YES
The question is what was the cross that God predetermined?
The cross is a poring out of ones life, we see this in that we are to take up our own cross, the killing of our self life etc.
When did Jesus do this?
We are told that He pored out his life when He left the glory He had with the Father and came into the world in the likeness of man.
This was when he was delivered into the wicked hands of sinner and those wicked hand crucified him on a wooded stake.
Thus it was the wicked hands of sinners that demanded a blood sacrifice.
I agree with those scriptures mike, but understand them from a whole different perspective.
And I think everyone on this thread is missing what those scriptures are actually telling us.
Was it Gods predetermined plan for Jesus to go to the cross? YES
The question is what was the cross that God predetermined?
The cross is a poring out of ones life, we see this in that we are to take up our own cross, the killing of our self life etc.
When did Jesus do this?
We are told that He pored out his life when He left the glory He had with the Father and came into the world in the likeness of man.
This was when he was delivered into the wicked hands of sinner and those wicked hand crucified him on a wooded stake.
Thus it was the wicked hands of sinners that demanded a blood sacrifice.
You've tried that argument on me before. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.
Jesus had to go the the cross on which he was crucified in order to become a curse for us. Under the Mosaic law, a man hanged from a tree was accursed. Jesus' death had to be by crucifixion in order to fulfill the law and redeem us from the curse of the law. And Jesus was obedient to the Father's plan for him to die on that cross.
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Phil 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
How can Jesus who forgave us for His horrendous scourging and crucifixion because we knew not what we did be the same Jesus who would condemn ANYONE to eternal Hell for ANY reason????
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22).
That alone ought to tell you that those who do not receive what Jesus did for them on the Cross do not have remission of sins.
If they do not receive remission, then they are not forgiven. If they are not forgiven, then they are recipients of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3). if they are reicpients of God's wrath, they will have "wailing and gnashing of teeth," (Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50), no matter how you slice it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove
That's your belief and you're entitled to it. That doesn't make it fact however.
Correct.
The reality is not that it is a fact because I believe it; but rather that I believe it because it is a fact.
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22).
That alone ought to tell you that those who do not receive what Jesus did for them on the Cross do not have remission of sins.
If they do not receive remission, then they are not forgiven. If they are not forgiven, then they are recipients of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3). if they are reicpients of God's wrath, they will have "wailing and gnashing of teeth," (Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50), no matter how you slice it.
Now you are mixing up remission with forgiveness from God which is NOT conditional. Remission is what occurs in us whenever we have the states of mind of God's Holy Spirit of agape love in our hearts. Agape love is the "antibody" to sin that puts us in remission. It has nothing to do with God's forgiveness which is unconditional.
You've tried that argument on me before. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.
Jesus had to go the the cross on which he was crucified in order to become a curse for us. Under the Mosaic law, a man hanged from a tree was accursed. Jesus' death had to be by crucifixion in order to fulfill the law and redeem us from the curse of the law. And Jesus was obedient to the Father's plan for him to die on that cross.
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
That scripture is talking about being under the curse of the law and it was those under the law that demanded that he hang on a tree. They rejected Jesus as the messiah cursed of God therefore hung him on the tree.
Quote:
B]Phil 2:8[/b] And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
obedient to the point of death, even the death demanded by those under the law. Now ask yourself why does the scripture use two deaths here?
That scripture is talking about being under the curse of the law and it was those under the law that demanded that he hang on a tree. They rejected Jesus as the messiah cursed of God therefore hung him on the tree.
obedient to the point of death, even the death demanded by those under the law. Now ask yourself why does the scripture use two deaths here?
Post 153 is my final word to you on the matter. Period.
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