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Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Great scriptures now try and explain what they mean. a straight reading like you are doing would say God created people to be eternally tormented so where is your free will in that understanding.
I will give you a more detailed understanding of Ro.9 after you answer my question.
I was handed a tract a few moments ago at my front door, it said:
FIRST, YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE A SINNER.
SECOND, YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT AS A SINNER YOU OWE A PENALTY.
THIRD, YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS ALREADY PAID YOUR SIN DEBT.
FOURTH, YOU MUST ACCEPT BY FAITH WHAT JESUS CHRIST DID FOR YOU.
In other words, YOU MUST ACCEPT whatever you are told!
Any thoughts on the idea that YOU MUST ACCEPT this or that?
(The man had his two daughters with him who were around 6-8 years of age).
It is hard for those of us other sheep to know how the anointed feel sir. The Bible points out that the spirit bears witness with their spirit. They know beyond a reasonable doubt that they have received the calling.
We have been taught recently that if there is any doubt in your mind if you have been called, then most likely you have not. That helped me to know, as sometimes I thought that I might have been, but now I fully realize that I have not been chosen.
Great scriptures now try and explain what they mean. a straight reading like you are doing would say God created people to be eternally tormented so where is your free will in that understanding.
I will give you a more detailed understanding of Ro.9 after you answer my question.
Here are my teachings on the passage.
Rom 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Rom 9:14, What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:15, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17, For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
In v.13, Paul quotes from Malachi 1:2-3, wherein God says that He loved Jacob but hated Esau. In scripture it becomes clear that God love Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born. On what basis? On the basis of His foreknowledge of their behaviour. God is angry with the wicked every day; and it is clear from holy scripture that Esau was wicked. But God exists outside of time; and therefore He is angry with the wicked from the perspective of Him dwelling in eternity. Therefore He is always angry with those whom He knows will never receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour; and He always has favour towards those whom he knows will eventually come to Him for salvation.
In v.14, the fact that God has angry emotions against the wicked does not make God unrighteous. It is, in fact, the exact opposite. It is His righteousness that makes Him angry with wicked behaviour.
In v.15, God reserves the right to show compassion to whom He wills; and to show mercy to whom He wills. He has His reasons for redeeming every person who will be redeemed; and we are not to question His choices.
In v.16, We can run, and we can will ourselves to be saved; but our willing and our running is not what is going to save us. God is in fact a God of grace and He gives salvation to many as a free gift. So, if there are those who, in an attempt to earn their salvation, run hard and will hard to enter into the kingdom; and if God says, no, you will not enter into the kingdom, then God is just to exclude them from the kingdom because it is not of him who runs or of him who wills but of God who shows mercy. That being said, I would bring up a specific scripture that tells us that if we come to Him on the basis of His mercy, he will not reject us: Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
In v.17, We know that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to bring about a greater purpose of making His power and glory known to the world. God sacrificed Pharaoh in that Pharaoh could not be saved because God had hardened his heart; but it was for a greater purpose; that men may understand that God is sovereign and Omnipotent and in control; and that He is greater than all other gods.
In v.18, God has mercy on whom He wills; and whom He wills He also hardens. This only goes to show that God is God and we are not. God gives every man a choice as concerning whether they will come to faith in Jesus Christ; but ultimately God is in control of our decisions in that love never fails and those whom He loves, He will not fail to bring into the kingdom. He also sees us worshipping Him in eternity from before the foundation of the world, before He created us; and so He has chosen to single out certain souls for salvation who have been foreknown and therefore predestinated unto salvation.
Rom 9:19, Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Rom 9:23, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:24, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In v.19, in response to the thought that God sheweth mercy to whom he wills; Paul now deals with the objection in the mind of the sinner; why does God find fault with me if everything is predestinated according to His will? If He predetermined for me to be a sinner and condemned, then how can he blame me for being a sinner? It was His predetermined choice, after all...
What the objector is not seeing is that it has always been the Lord's will that they should come to repentance; and that the Lord predestinated them to salvation or damnation according to foreknowledge of the decisions that they would make. Time and chance happen to everything (Ecclesiastes 9:11) and if God looked forward into history and foreknew who would most easily choose Him; and then put forth the utmost effort to save as many as possible by principally loving those whom He knew would be redeemed unto salvation (for it is written that love never fails), then God is actually doing all He can to make sure as many people as possible will enter in to the kingdom. Psalms 49:7-9 is tantamount to this.
In v.20, The answer is simple: you are the one who is formed by God; and if God created you with a specific purpose in mind, who are you to answer back to God? Now here is the thing: when the potter chooses his clay, it can be said that each lump of clay cries out for a specific thing to be done to it from within itself. The potter merely forms out of the clay the thing that the clay was intended to be by its general makeup and demeanor. A lump of clay may cry out to be something wonderful; but in the process of working the clay, the clay becomes marred in the potter's hand; because the clay didn't really know what it wanted. It wanted the glory of being a wonderful piece but did not want to face the suffering of being molded and shaped into it. So the potter has to make it into a less wonderful piece because it is marred in the potter's hand; it responded to the working of the clay in such a manner that the original intended purpose cannot now be achieved.
In v.21, The potter has power over each lump of clay to make it unto honour or dishonour. If a piece of clay wants to be made unto honour, it must endure the process of being molded and shaped in the hands of the potter. The potter ultimately decides whether a lump of clay is worthy to be made into an honourable vessel; based on how it responds to the potter's touch.
In v.22, The potter may be enduring the different intricacies of how the clay is on the inside of itself before he decides to make it into a dishonourable vessel. God is always wanting to make an honourable vessel out of every lump of clay; but certain lumps may not respond properly to the potter's touch and so the final decision for that lump of clay is that it becomes a dishonourable vessel. Consider what is written in Hebrews 3:12-13:
Heb 3:12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
In v.23, it appears that God prepared the lumps of clay that are predestined unto glory before He began to mold them and shape them; so that they not only cry out to be made into honourable vessels; but they are created in such a way that they will respond in a proper manner to the potter's touch.
Other vessels, He simply did not prepare for glory; and He is fully aware beforehand that they will very likely not respond properly to the potter's hand; while there is always hope that an unprepared vessel might be able to be made into something honourable. But unprepared vessels generally do not want to be an honourable vessel; it is their inclination to want to form themselves into what they want to be apart from the potter's touch. So they rebel against the molding and shaping of the potter.
In v.24, Paul is hopeful that the ones he is writing to are among those who will be molded and shaped into honourable vessels.
In all of this, I believe that it is expedient for us to ask the Lord on a regular basis to make us into an honourable vessel; and also to not buck it when He is forming us into something that perhaps we don't want to be.
If we ask to be made into an honourable vessel and are also moldable in the potter's hands, we can rest assured that we will be made into an honourable vessel. For it is written,
Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If we attempt to will our own salvation into being, we will surely fail to produce salvation in ourselves (John 1:13, Romans 9:16); but if we cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Lord, we can be certain that He will be faithful to hear us; for it is also written,
Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Last edited by justbyfaith; 07-17-2021 at 06:20 AM..
eternal torment is a seriously bad doctrine that sets the haves against the have nots
I'm just attempting to understand what Michael meant. My own opinions of Christain doctrines belong in a different forum as I come for trying to understand others not debate them. I do respect the TOS of each forum.
I find according to 1st Corinthians 15:50 that ' flesh.... ' ( physical bodies) are Not in Heaven.
Also, I find the "all Israel " is in reference to -> Romans 2:28-29; Romans 9:6; Galatians 3:29.
So, since Pentecost the "Israel of God" to be saved is the Christian congregation, the spiritual nation - 1 Peter 2:9,5
The Christian congregation is the now nation producing fruit as Jesus said at Matthew 21:43.
A Jew Not by fleshly national descent but by God's spirit - Galatians 6:16 - spiritual Israelites - Romans 8:16-17.
Physical bodies are for the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5; Psalm 37:9-11
Rom 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Rom 9:14, What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:15, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17, For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
In v.13, Paul quotes from Malachi 1:2-3, wherein God says that He loved Jacob but hated Esau. In scripture it becomes clear that God love Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born. On what basis? On the basis of His foreknowledge of their behaviour. God is angry with the wicked every day; and it is clear from holy scripture that Esau was wicked. But God exists outside of time; and therefore He is angry with the wicked from the perspective of Him dwelling in eternity. Therefore He is always angry with those whom He knows will never receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour; and He always has favour towards those whom he knows will eventually come to Him for salvation.
In other words you believe God know who He is going to save and who He is not going to save before they are even born. So then when God sent Jesus to save the world God did not really mean the world just those He knew that would believe. I did not realize you were a Calvinist.
Quote:
In v.14, the fact that God has angry emotions against the wicked does not make God unrighteous. It is, in fact, the exact opposite. It is His righteousness that makes Him angry with wicked behaviour.
In v.15, God reserves the right to show compassion to whom He wills; and to show mercy to whom He wills. He has His reasons for redeeming every person who will be redeemed; and we are not to question His choices.
In other words mans free will has no say in the matter of salvation.
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In v.16, We can run, and we can will ourselves to be saved; but our willing and our running is not what is going to save us. God is in fact a God of grace and He gives salvation to many as a free gift. So, if there are those who, in an attempt to earn their salvation, run hard and will hard to enter into the kingdom; and if God says, no, you will not enter into the kingdom, then God is just to exclude them from the kingdom because it is not of him who runs or of him who wills but of God who shows mercy. That being said, I would bring up a specific scripture that tells us that if we come to Him on the basis of His mercy, he will not reject us: Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
You believe in free will yet here you say we cannot will ourselves to be saved if God say no you cannot enter into the kingdom, so much for free will. The only thing you got correct here is the qoute from scripture.
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In v.17, We know that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to bring about a greater purpose of making His power and glory known to the world. God sacrificed Pharaoh in that Pharaoh could not be saved because God had hardened his heart; but it was for a greater purpose; that men may understand that God is sovereign and Omnipotent and in control; and that He is greater than all other gods.
So God purposely raise Pharaoh up just so he could not be saved. where is Pharaoh's free will choice here?
Quote:
In v.18, God has mercy on whom He wills; and whom He wills He also hardens. This only goes to show that God is God and we are not. God gives every man a choice as concerning whether they will come to faith in Jesus Christ; but ultimately God is in control of our decisions in that love never fails and those whom He loves, He will not fail to bring into the kingdom. He also sees us worshipping Him in eternity from before the foundation of the world, before He created us; and so He has chosen to single out certain souls for salvation who have been foreknown and therefore predestinated unto salvation.
that is pure double talk, we either have free will to choose or we don't and according to you Pharaoh never had a choice.
Quote:
Rom 9:19, Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Rom 9:23, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:24, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In v.19, in response to the thought that God sheweth mercy to whom he wills; Paul now deals with the objection in the mind of the sinner; why does God find fault with me if everything is predestinated according to His will? If He predetermined for me to be a sinner and condemned, then how can he blame me for being a sinner? It was His predetermined choice, after all...
What the objector is not seeing is that it has always been the Lord's will that they should come to repentance; and that the Lord predestinated them to salvation or damnation according to foreknowledge of the decisions that they would make. Time and chance happen to everything (Ecclesiastes 9:11) and if God looked forward into history and foreknew who would most easily choose Him; and then put forth the utmost effort to save as many as possible by principally loving those whom He knew would be redeemed unto salvation (for it is written that love never fails), then God is actually doing all He can to make sure as many people as possible will enter in to the kingdom. Psalms 49:7-9 is tantamount to this.
More double talk our free choice is either free or it is not, it it is predestined that some will not choose then that choice was taken from them before they were even born.
Quote:
In v.20, The answer is simple: you are the one who is formed by God; and if God created you with a specific purpose in mind, who are you to answer back to God? Now here is the thing: when the potter chooses his clay, it can be said that each lump of clay cries out for a specific thing to be done to it from within itself. The potter merely forms out of the clay the thing that the clay was intended to be by its general makeup and demeanor. A lump of clay may cry out to be something wonderful; but in the process of working the clay, the clay becomes marred in the potter's hand; because the clay didn't really know what it wanted. It wanted the glory of being a wonderful piece but did not want to face the suffering of being molded and shaped into it. So the potter has to make it into a less wonderful piece because it is marred in the potter's hand; it responded to the working of the clay in such a manner that the original intended purpose cannot now be achieved.
so now God does the marring because God could not mold the clay to what He wanted it to become. More double talk, you said earlier that God intended because of His foreknowledge that He would make the vessel for destruction. in other words according to you God made the vessel exactly the way He wanted to.
Quote:
In v.21, The potter has power over each lump of clay to make it unto honour or dishonour. If a piece of clay wants to be made unto honour, it must endure the process of being molded and shaped in the hands of the potter. The potter ultimately decides whether a lump of clay is worthy to be made into an honourable vessel; based on how it responds to the potter's touch.
But according to you God already decided this before He even picked up the clay to try and mold it.
Quote:
In v.22, The potter may be enduring the different intricacies of how the clay is on the inside of itself before he decides to make it into a dishonourable vessel. God is always wanting to make an honourable vessel out of every lump of clay; but certain lumps may not respond properly to the potter's touch and so the final decision for that lump of clay is that it becomes a dishonourable vessel. Consider what is written in Hebrews 3:12-13:
more double talk. You said God foreknew who would and would not believe and so according to His foreknowledge and predestination there is no choice in the matter for the individual so how can you now say God always wanted to make honorable vessels.
Quote:
Heb 3:12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
In v.23, it appears that God prepared the lumps of clay that are predestined unto glory before He began to mold them and shape them; so that they not only cry out to be made into honourable vessels; but they are created in such a way that they will respond in a proper manner to the potter's touch.
Other vessels, He simply did not prepare for glory; and He is fully aware beforehand that they will very likely not respond properly to the potter's hand; while there is always hope that an unprepared vessel might be able to be made into something honourable. But unprepared vessels generally do not want to be an honourable vessel; it is their inclination to want to form themselves into what they want to be apart from the potter's touch. So they rebel against the molding and shaping of the potter.
man are you all over the place, man has free will to choose, but can't choose because God already predestined them, but they still have a choice of which vessel they want to be, but not many want to be made vessels of honour, so they rebel against the molding of God. That is the most convoluted understanding of those scriptures I have ever seen.
Quote:
In v.24, Paul is hopeful that the ones he is writing to are among those who will be molded and shaped into honourable vessels.
In all of this, I believe that it is expedient for us to ask the Lord on a regular basis to make us into an honourable vessel; and also to not buck it when He is forming us into something that perhaps we don't want to be.
Why? you have already said God knows before we are even born what type of vessel we will be and we are not to question Him about it.
Quote:
If we ask to be made into an honourable vessel and are also moldable in the potter's hands, we can rest assured that we will be made into an honourable vessel. For it is written,
Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If we attempt to will our own salvation into being, we will surely fail to produce salvation in ourselves (John 1:13, Romans 9:16); but if we cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Lord, we can be certain that He will be faithful to hear us; for it is also written,
Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
More double talk, you are all over the place throughout this post JBF.
First man has the free will to make a choice
Man cannot will to be saved it is all of God
God predestined what type of vessel you will be and we are not to question Him about it
none of these things you say are compatible with each other.
Understanding Romans 9
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I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.
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Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.
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These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.
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So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.
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I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.
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*Individually
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Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
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To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.
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Jeremiah 18:1-6
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The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
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The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:
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So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.
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Now read in Romans 9:21
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Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
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Now keep in mind that it is the SAME LUMP.
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The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.
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What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
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Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.
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Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.
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So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.
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What is Gods aim for every vessel?
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It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.
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Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are the SAME LUMP.
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What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.
Think of the outer man and the inner man
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Collectively
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Jeremiah 18:11-12 states
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11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
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Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.
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However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.
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Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
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Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
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So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?
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Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.
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Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way
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Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.
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Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.
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The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.
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Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
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The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.
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The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.
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Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
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Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
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The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.
So all believers go to heaven? Scripture indicates that some are resurrected to a heavenly life. The first resurrection found in Revelation 20:6. John contrasted the smaller number of the first resurrection to the greater multitude that aren't included- Revelation 7:4, 9,14
So all believers resurrected to earth? No, not all. Some are resurrected to a heavenly life. However, there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous- Acts 24:15. Righteous people in the Bible include Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, David. They never made it to heaven but nevertheless are resurrected. So If not to heaven there's a transformed earth awaiting them. Peter 3:13, Acts 2;29,34.Psalm 37:11 and Isaiah 65:21-25
No one is resurrected to a heavenly life. I'm going to modify that statement in view of the fact that I hold to the pretribulational and premillennial view of the resurrection. Understand the meaning of the words that you use. Resurrection does not mean the soul and spirit going to heaven. The word resurrection refers to the body being raised in a state of immortality and incorruptibility. The soul and spirit rejoins the resurrected body.
Each and every believer since the time that Jesus was resurrected goes to heaven when he dies. His body goes into the grave or is otherwise disposed of, and his soul and spirit---his immaterial self goes to heaven. Before the cross all Old Testament believers went to paradise which was located in a part of Sheol. After Jesus was resurrected paradise was transferred to heaven and all Old Testament believers were as well.
Now, in the pre-tribulational and premillennial view to which I hold, the church age believer will be resurrected at the time of the rapture of the church. And so the church age believer who is still physically alive on the earth at the time of the rapture will go to heaven in his resurrection body and will return to the earth with Jesus when he returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation. All old Testament believers and Tribulational believers will be resurrected at the time that Jesus returns to the earth. Ultimately, all believers, having been resurrected will live on the earth and in the New Jerusalem.
The determining factor is the will of God and not the will of man. God sent Jesus to save the world and they will not fail to do so. Stop placing man puny will against Gods will and giving man the victory.
If you want to talk about that ridiculous Universalist teaching take it to the designated thread for it.
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Good post. Hope Hannibal reads it 
