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The determining factor is the will of God and not the will of man. God sent Jesus to save the world and they will not fail to do so. Stop placing man puny will against Gods will and giving man the victory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
If you want to talk about that ridiculous Universalist teaching take it to the designated thread for it.
The question of this thread is "how to know you are going to heaven" my answer as seen above is because the will of God is greater then the will of man.
So tell me where in the above statement I said anything about the salvation of all?
I'm just attempting to understand what Michael meant. My own opinions of Christain doctrines belong in a different forum as I come for trying to understand others not debate them. I do respect the TOS of each forum.
I have no disagreement with your comment.
With regard to the issue of 'eternal punishment,' the very essence of eternal punishment is being forever separated from God at least in a spiritual sense. As the apostle Paul put it in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 --- ''These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.''
There's no reason to take the 'fire' in the lake of fire as a literal fire. The term 'fire' simply refers to judgment of some sort. Being separated from God forever is a judgment.
Also, the word translated as 'destruction' in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is the Greek word ὄλεθρος/olethros and can simply refer to being in a ruined state or condition and need not be understood as referring to annihilation.
The question of this thread is "how to know you are going to heaven" my answer as seen above is because the will of God is greater then the will of man.
So tell me where in the above statement I said anything about the salvation of all?
The determining factor is the will of God and not the will of man. God sent Jesus to save the world and they will not fail to do so. Stop placing man puny will against Gods will and giving man the victory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
If you want to talk about that ridiculous Universalist teaching take it to the designated thread for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
The question of this thread is "how to know you are going to heaven" my answer as seen above is because the will of God is greater then the will of man.
So tell me where in the above statement I said anything about the salvation of all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You speak with a forked tongue.
The only reason you got the salvation of all from what I said was because you know I believe in the salvation of all, not because of anything I said which is plainly recorded above for all to see.
So show me where I mentioned anything about the salvation of all in that reply.
Michael, are you sure all believers go directly to heaven without passing Go?
Luke 12:45-46
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Here is an example of a disobedient believer and the Lord assigns him a place with unbelievers.
In that parable Jesus is not referring to the church age believer but seems to be referring to Israel's leaders at the time of Jesus' return. Keep in mind also that the language ''cut him in pieces'' is hyperbolic. At any rate, to be more specific, all church age believers go directly to heaven when they die. And so will all Tribulational believers. In both Revelation chapters 6 and 7 John in his vision sees Tribulational martyrs in heaven.
The only reason you got the salvation of all from what I said was because you know I believe in the salvation of all, not because of anything I said which is plainly recorded above for all to see.
So show me where I mentioned anything about the salvation of all in that reply.
Never mind when I referred to God will I did use a reference about salvation. However that still fits within the title of the thread whether you like that or not
In other words you believe God know who He is going to save and who He is not going to save before they are even born. So then when God sent Jesus to save the world God did not really mean the world just those He knew that would believe. I did not realize you were a Calvinist.
In other words mans free will has no say in the matter of salvation.
You believe in free will yet here you say we cannot will ourselves to be saved if God say no you cannot enter into the kingdom, so much for free will. The only thing you got correct here is the qoute from scripture.
So God purposely raise Pharaoh up just so he could not be saved. where is Pharaoh's free will choice here?
that is pure double talk, we either have free will to choose or we don't and according to you Pharaoh never had a choice.
More double talk our free choice is either free or it is not, it it is predestined that some will not choose then that choice was taken from them before they were even born.
so now God does the marring because God could not mold the clay to what He wanted it to become. More double talk, you said earlier that God intended because of His foreknowledge that He would make the vessel for destruction. in other words according to you God made the vessel exactly the way He wanted to.
But according to you God already decided this before He even picked up the clay to try and mold it.
more double talk. You said God foreknew who would and would not believe and so according to His foreknowledge and predestination there is no choice in the matter for the individual so how can you now say God always wanted to make honorable vessels.
man are you all over the place, man has free will to choose, but can't choose because God already predestined them, but they still have a choice of which vessel they want to be, but not many want to be made vessels of honour, so they rebel against the molding of God. That is the most convoluted understanding of those scriptures I have ever seen.
Why? you have already said God knows before we are even born what type of vessel we will be and we are not to question Him about it.
More double talk, you are all over the place throughout this post JBF.
First man has the free will to make a choice
Man cannot will to be saved it is all of God
God predestined what type of vessel you will be and we are not to question Him about it
none of these things you say are compatible with each other.
I will only say that my teaching on the passage was based on pure exposition and was done out of pure exegesis. I pulled the meaning from the text rather than reading into the text what I wanted to read into it.
If some of what I say seems to be double talk, it is because there are contrasting ideas that are being dealt with within the context of that scripture.
One needs to see how those contrasting ideas come together in order to understand the reality of what is being taught by these scriptures.
Dogma notwithstanding, my philosophy is "Try to be the kind of person you wouldn't mind spending eternity with. Otherwise, you'll be hellacious company."
Works here and there, too.
I will only say that my teaching on the passage was based on pure exposition and was done out of pure exegesis. I pulled the meaning from the text rather than reading into the text what I wanted to read into it.
If some of what I say seems to be double talk, it is because there are contrasting ideas that are being dealt with within the context of that scripture.
One needs to see how those contrasting ideas come together in order to understand the reality of what is being taught by these scriptures.
The only exegesis you used to resolve the contradictions was to impose your preference for the wrathful, vengeful Israelite War God over the "wimpy", "Hippie" God of Jesus Christ! You chose the CONTEXT of God that you preferred for your interpretations.
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