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Old 07-22-2021, 11:29 AM
 
Location: TEXAS
3,824 posts, read 1,378,692 times
Reputation: 2016

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
You bring up an important point (bolded, above).
Q. In your understanding of the bible/gospel, Does Jesus call you to transform your life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSPNative View Post
Well, of course He does.
Ok, great; good answer.

Now for the million dollar question - Why do you think He wants you to change? Why is it important?
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Old 07-22-2021, 01:01 PM
sub
 
Location: ^##
4,963 posts, read 3,751,401 times
Reputation: 7831
The teachings of Christ, expressed by people who live by them, should be enough to fill stadiums.
However, it's not that easy.
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Old 07-23-2021, 04:15 PM
 
1,810 posts, read 898,225 times
Reputation: 2947
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSPNative View Post
Background

I'm a member of a mainline church in the US. It's in an affluent, well-educated community. There are some very successful and very educated people in the congregation, and the church belongs to a denomination whose members, as surveys show, are among the most highly educated of any religious group in the US. Members of the clergy all have at least one graduate degree, and some have PhDs or multiple graduate degrees. Thus the congregation and the clergy is capable of handling matters that are intellectually rigorous.

Problem: Church is "Fluff"

However, so many church services and other activities are light "fluff". For example, Sunday worship services involve only one passage of Scripture, and the sermon is about 20 minutes and may have a few minutes talking about the passage, but usually consists of the pastor's views (based on his or her own experiences, and other books and articles that the pastor has read) about life, and life in relation to the passage. Only sometimes is there an in-depth analysis of the passage.

Further, Sunday services are often as short as 40 minutes. We're told to "return good for evil" and we can certainly think about the passage and the sermon and see how it applies to our lives, but there's no clear instruction of "do this this week in order to grow in your faith".

So church activities are intellectually fluffy and there's no clear instruction to change our lives by putting the Bible to practice.

So the only reason I see to go is to see friends and to spend time in community with God. I don't learn much and the church doesn't require me to transform my life.

Question: Better if Church Were More Rigorous and Demanding?

What if church activities were significantly more intellectually challenging; for example, what if Sunday services took up an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, with 20 minutes spend with a detailed analysis of at least one Bible passage? And what if the church required its members to do specific things to remain part of the community, such as do X hours of homeless ministry per month, or be part of a rigorous accountability group? That might drive a lot of people away, but for those who would take part, wouldn't that make church much more effective?

If church were more intellectually challenging, and if church were more demanding that its members put their faith into action to change their lives, wouldn't that be better? Couldn't that help churches grow, since then there would be a clear consequence from attendance, and there would be a clear reason to go?

Thanks.
Horrible idea.
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Old 07-23-2021, 04:38 PM
 
63,785 posts, read 40,053,123 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchikanite View Post
Horrible idea.
In my experience as a Professor, rigor tends to lessen voluntary participation, period.
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Old 07-24-2021, 06:22 AM
 
614 posts, read 172,813 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
In my experience as a Professor, rigor tends to lessen voluntary participation, period.
Yes, in the real world God keeps us interested, by showing us the power of seeking the best in ourselves. It's not like following some kind of drug. It's not a substitute. It's not a placeholder.



It does take waiting upon the Lord. If we weren't born with wisdom, we pray that He teaches it to us. Only let us not be like unruly, and unteachable, children, who can't ever get beyond a certain letter in the alphabet. It's good to be soft, but let not our softness keep us from the kingdom. Let me not insist upon pleasing myself at the expense of my true happiness when I get to a place I can look back at all of this from. Certainly, I am only saved by the grace of God!
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Old 07-24-2021, 06:59 AM
 
3,573 posts, read 1,175,285 times
Reputation: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSPNative View Post
Background

I'm a member of a mainline church in the US. It's in an affluent, well-educated community. There are some very successful and very educated people in the congregation, and the church belongs to a denomination whose members, as surveys show, are among the most highly educated of any religious group in the US. Members of the clergy all have at least one graduate degree, and some have PhDs or multiple graduate degrees. Thus the congregation and the clergy is capable of handling matters that are intellectually rigorous.

Problem: Church is "Fluff"

However, so many church services and other activities are light "fluff". For example, Sunday worship services involve only one passage of Scripture, and the sermon is about 20 minutes and may have a few minutes talking about the passage, but usually consists of the pastor's views (based on his or her own experiences, and other books and articles that the pastor has read) about life, and life in relation to the passage. Only sometimes is there an in-depth analysis of the passage.

Further, Sunday services are often as short as 40 minutes. We're told to "return good for evil" and we can certainly think about the passage and the sermon and see how it applies to our lives, but there's no clear instruction of "do this this week in order to grow in your faith".

So church activities are intellectually fluffy and there's no clear instruction to change our lives by putting the Bible to practice.

So the only reason I see to go is to see friends and to spend time in community with God. I don't learn much and the church doesn't require me to transform my life.

Question: Better if Church Were More Rigorous and Demanding?

What if church activities were significantly more intellectually challenging; for example, what if Sunday services took up an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, with 20 minutes spend with a detailed analysis of at least one Bible passage? And what if the church required its members to do specific things to remain part of the community, such as do X hours of homeless ministry per month, or be part of a rigorous accountability group? That might drive a lot of people away, but for those who would take part, wouldn't that make church much more effective?

If church were more intellectually challenging, and if church were more demanding that its members put their faith into action to change their lives, wouldn't that be better? Couldn't that help churches grow, since then there would be a clear consequence from attendance, and there would be a clear reason to go?

Thanks.
church is the place for teaching it is more or less a club...
the other, more important, place is in one's secret inner room.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/6-6.htm
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:17 AM
 
18,976 posts, read 7,009,498 times
Reputation: 3584
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval View Post
church is the place for teaching it is more or less a club...
the other, more important, place is in one's secret inner room.
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/6-6.htm
If that's what you think Church is, it's no wonder you wouldn't want to go to it.

But God commands that we meet with other believers, worship with them, fellowship with them, and be taught the Word of God with them.

Heb 10:25 "And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:27 AM
 
8,039 posts, read 1,837,694 times
Reputation: 143
I think that the motivation for real, biblical obedience, in the gospel, is not out of obligation but out of gratitude.

So, requiring members to serve would not be a biblical form for doing things.

But of course it would definitely be beneficial to offer opportunities for service to parishioners.

Then, if faith makes a mark on their heart and they are born again through faith in Jesus Christ, they might be inclined to hop aboard and serve in whatever capacity is offered.
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,349,449 times
Reputation: 2296
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
If that's what you think Church is, it's no wonder you wouldn't want to go to it.

But God commands that we meet with other believers, worship with them, fellowship with them, and be taught the Word of God with them.

Heb 10:25 "And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
Much like that of a cult.
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:37 AM
 
8,039 posts, read 1,837,694 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Much like that of a cult.
And if you ever accuse others of being overly judgmental, you have three fingers pointing back at you.
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