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I'm a member of a mainline church in the US. It's in an affluent, well-educated community. There are some very successful and very educated people in the congregation, and the church belongs to a denomination whose members, as surveys show, are among the most highly educated of any religious group in the US. Members of the clergy all have at least one graduate degree, and some have PhDs or multiple graduate degrees. Thus the congregation and the clergy is capable of handling matters that are intellectually rigorous.
Problem: Church is "Fluff"
However, so many church services and other activities are light "fluff". For example, Sunday worship services involve only one passage of Scripture, and the sermon is about 20 minutes and may have a few minutes talking about the passage, but usually consists of the pastor's views (based on his or her own experiences, and other books and articles that the pastor has read) about life, and life in relation to the passage. Only sometimes is there an in-depth analysis of the passage.
Further, Sunday services are often as short as 40 minutes. We're told to "return good for evil" and we can certainly think about the passage and the sermon and see how it applies to our lives, but there's no clear instruction of "do this this week in order to grow in your faith".
So church activities are intellectually fluffy and there's no clear instruction to change our lives by putting the Bible to practice.
So the only reason I see to go is to see friends and to spend time in community with God. I don't learn much and the church doesn't require me to transform my life.
Question: Better if Church Were More Rigorous and Demanding?
What if church activities were significantly more intellectually challenging; for example, what if Sunday services took up an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, with 20 minutes spend with a detailed analysis of at least one Bible passage? And what if the church required its members to do specific things to remain part of the community, such as do X hours of homeless ministry per month, or be part of a rigorous accountability group? That might drive a lot of people away, but for those who would take part, wouldn't that make church much more effective?
If church were more intellectually challenging, and if church were more demanding that its members put their faith into action to change their lives, wouldn't that be better? Couldn't that help churches grow, since then there would be a clear consequence from attendance, and there would be a clear reason to go?
I'm a member of a mainline church in the US. It's in an affluent, well-educated community. There are some very successful and very educated people in the congregation, and the church belongs to a denomination whose members, as surveys show, are among the most highly educated of any religious group in the US. Members of the clergy all have at least one graduate degree, and some have PhDs or multiple graduate degrees. Thus the congregation and the clergy is capable of handling matters that are intellectually rigorous.
Problem: Church is "Fluff"
However, so many church services and other activities are light "fluff". For example, Sunday worship services involve only one passage of Scripture, and the sermon is about 20 minutes and may have a few minutes talking about the passage, but usually consists of the pastor's views (based on his or her own experiences, and other books and articles that the pastor has read) about life, and life in relation to the passage. Only sometimes is there an in-depth analysis of the passage.
Further, Sunday services are often as short as 40 minutes. We're told to "return good for evil" and we can certainly think about the passage and the sermon and see how it applies to our lives, but there's no clear instruction of "do this this week in order to grow in your faith".
So church activities are intellectually fluffy and there's no clear instruction to change our lives by putting the Bible to practice.
So the only reason I see to go is to see friends and to spend time in community with God. I don't learn much and the church doesn't require me to transform my life.
Question: Better if Church Were More Rigorous and Demanding?
What if church activities were significantly more intellectually challenging; for example, what if Sunday services took up an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, with 20 minutes spend with a detailed analysis of at least one Bible passage? And what if the church required its members to do specific things to remain part of the community, such as do X hours of homeless ministry per month, or be part of a rigorous accountability group? That might drive a lot of people away, but for those who would take part, wouldn't that make church much more effective?
If church were more intellectually challenging, and if church were more demanding that its members put their faith into action to change their lives, wouldn't that be better? Couldn't that help churches grow, since then there would be a clear consequence from attendance, and there would be a clear reason to go?
Thanks.
You bring up an important point (bolded, above).
Q. In your understanding of the bible/gospel, Does Jesus call you to transform your life?
I'm a member of a mainline church in the US. It's in an affluent, well-educated community. There are some very successful and very educated people in the congregation, and the church belongs to a denomination whose members, as surveys show, are among the most highly educated of any religious group in the US. Members of the clergy all have at least one graduate degree, and some have PhDs or multiple graduate degrees. Thus the congregation and the clergy is capable of handling matters that are intellectually rigorous.
Problem: Church is "Fluff"
However, so many church services and other activities are light "fluff". For example, Sunday worship services involve only one passage of Scripture, and the sermon is about 20 minutes and may have a few minutes talking about the passage, but usually consists of the pastor's views (based on his or her own experiences, and other books and articles that the pastor has read) about life, and life in relation to the passage. Only sometimes is there an in-depth analysis of the passage.
Further, Sunday services are often as short as 40 minutes. We're told to "return good for evil" and we can certainly think about the passage and the sermon and see how it applies to our lives, but there's no clear instruction of "do this this week in order to grow in your faith".
So church activities are intellectually fluffy and there's no clear instruction to change our lives by putting the Bible to practice.
So the only reason I see to go is to see friends and to spend time in community with God. I don't learn much and the church doesn't require me to transform my life.
Question: Better if Church Were More Rigorous and Demanding?
What if church activities were significantly more intellectually challenging; for example, what if Sunday services took up an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, with 20 minutes spend with a detailed analysis of at least one Bible passage? And what if the church required its members to do specific things to remain part of the community, such as do X hours of homeless ministry per month, or be part of a rigorous accountability group? That might drive a lot of people away, but for those who would take part, wouldn't that make church much more effective?
If church were more intellectually challenging, and if church were more demanding that its members put their faith into action to change their lives, wouldn't that be better? Couldn't that help churches grow, since then there would be a clear consequence from attendance, and there would be a clear reason to go?
Thanks.
I think we're putting the cart before the horse. Don't confuse "member" with "attender". Those churches tend to try to draw a crowd, and then they think they're doing good by having lots of people.
I think church membership would be higher if there were more Christians. Christians know church is important, and they go. And they seek out churches where they can learn about Jesus. The Bible doesn't really talk about Christians that don't care to fellowship with other Christians, or to learn about God.
I am also a member of a mainline Protestant church, and our services are 1 hour long, with 2 scripture readings and a ~30 minute message/sermon. There is Sunday School before the main service for children and adults for those who want more discussion and depth. I think it's awful to have "requirements" for church members to attend, but I am an very "open and affirming" advocate.
Tell me, OP: what have you done to bring more depth, diversity, insight, etc. to your church? Would you be willing to head up a Bible study or other adult education group, organize community service programs, etc.? If so, what have you done to make that happen?
I am also a member of a mainline Protestant church, and our services are 1 hour long, with 2 scripture readings and a ~30 minute message/sermon. There is Sunday School before the main service for children and adults for those who want more discussion and depth. I think it's awful to have "requirements" for church members to attend, but I am an very "open and affirming" advocate.
Tell me, OP: what have you done to bring more depth, diversity, insight, etc. to your church? Would you be willing to head up a Bible study or other adult education group, organize community service programs, etc.? If so, what have you done to make that happen?
I've:
1. Served as an officer for over a decade.
2. Been on the leadership team for one sub-group within the church (with weekly meetings).
3. Offered to organize mission trips (the pandemic ended that), and participated in several mission trips.
4. Served as a youth advisor.
5. Spend hours doing homeless outreach, meals on wheels and other volunteer work.
What I've learned is that "fixing" things in the church requires being on the relevant committee AND having the support of the pastors AND having the support of people who the pastors like. Otherwise, there's no point in even saying anything.
Some churches do seek to be more advanced, more varied, more intellectual (Unitarian, Quaker, probably others). They just tend to receive less attention and numbers. But... it should be about quality not quantity. Better to follow the narrow path of the enlightened, than the wide path of the many and the worldly.
We have a choice. We don't have to just go to the big, shiny, loud churches. By our choices, we could lead to a change. In the end, the people speak. The majority might speak foolishly, but the issue is more with the general people / church goers, than the churches per se. If the people don't change, the churches certainly won't either. We mostly see compromise and laziness. One might be better off alone, or in small groups - making spiritual, mental, and social progress - than just another faceless body in a sea of churchgoers.
Again, we shouldn't be looking for numbers (membership, etc.) Numbers don't lead to anything in themselves. Jesus and the early followers made a big impact in small numbers. Only the world chases after and depends on numbers and attention like that.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 07-22-2021 at 09:50 AM..
I'm a member of a mainline church in the US. It's in an affluent, well-educated community. There are some very successful and very educated people in the congregation, and the church belongs to a denomination whose members, as surveys show, are among the most highly educated of any religious group in the US. Members of the clergy all have at least one graduate degree, and some have PhDs or multiple graduate degrees. Thus the congregation and the clergy is capable of handling matters that are intellectually rigorous.
Problem: Church is "Fluff"
However, so many church services and other activities are light "fluff". For example, Sunday worship services involve only one passage of Scripture, and the sermon is about 20 minutes and may have a few minutes talking about the passage, but usually consists of the pastor's views (based on his or her own experiences, and other books and articles that the pastor has read) about life, and life in relation to the passage. Only sometimes is there an in-depth analysis of the passage.
Further, Sunday services are often as short as 40 minutes. We're told to "return good for evil" and we can certainly think about the passage and the sermon and see how it applies to our lives, but there's no clear instruction of "do this this week in order to grow in your faith".
So church activities are intellectually fluffy and there's no clear instruction to change our lives by putting the Bible to practice.
So the only reason I see to go is to see friends and to spend time in community with God. I don't learn much and the church doesn't require me to transform my life.
Question: Better if Church Were More Rigorous and Demanding?
What if church activities were significantly more intellectually challenging; for example, what if Sunday services took up an hour or an hour and fifteen minutes, with 20 minutes spend with a detailed analysis of at least one Bible passage? And what if the church required its members to do specific things to remain part of the community, such as do X hours of homeless ministry per month, or be part of a rigorous accountability group? That might drive a lot of people away, but for those who would take part, wouldn't that make church much more effective?
If church were more intellectually challenging, and if church were more demanding that its members put their faith into action to change their lives, wouldn't that be better? Couldn't that help churches grow, since then there would be a clear consequence from attendance, and there would be a clear reason to go?
Thanks.
I think that the Bible should be taught verse-by-verse, and some churches do teach in that manner. All I can say is that those people who are interested in verse-by-verse exegetical teaching of the Bible will attend such a church if one is available in their area. But people who prefer 'fluffy services' will go to that kind of church.
I think that the Bible should be taught verse-by-verse, and some churches do teach in that manner. All I can say is that those people who are interested in verse-by-verse exegetical teaching of the Bible will attend such a church if one is available in their area. But people who prefer 'fluffy services' will go to that kind of church.
Better statement of what I was trying to say above. Well said.
Most of us don't want to be challenged. Most of us don't want to change (or see any need for change).
Most of us just want to be affirmed in what we're already doing.
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