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God came Himself in the flesh as a human so He Himself could endure the wrath and vengeance of our ignorant, savage, and brutal ancestors in a horrendous scourging and crucifixion that He lovingly forgave even His torturers and murderers for because they did not know any better, just to appease His obviously nonexistent wrath and vengeance against us so that He could forgive us for "whatever" we did because we did not know any better and that He Himself actually wanted to forgive us for. Doesn't that seem to be the product of the very primitive imaginations of men, Charlie?
Let's compare that to my version of the Cross,
God came Himself in the flesh as a human so He Himself could bring His perfect agape love to His HUMAN consciousness and endure with agape love and forgiveness a brutal scourging and crucifixion to make His True Nature obvious and also make His Holy Spirit available upon His physical death to ALL human consciousnesses as the Comforter to guide us to the Truth He has "written in our hearts" with agape love.
Which of the two versions is from the imaginations of men and which is compatible with the Holy Spirit of God (Its inspiration) as revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross, seen below?
The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
NO, that's not what I believe, of course you know that already.
Jesus was not murdered, He laid down His life freely as the sacrifice for mans sin. Man could not pay his sin debt, it was impossible to do and remain alive.
Sin is very serious and a price must be paid for it, a Holy and Just God demands it. So God sent His Son born of the Holy Spirit without a sin nature to live a perfect life on this earth and be the perfect, sin free sacrifice demanded by God. This is the agape love of God, He loved us that much to put His Son in shame and suffering even to the death for us!
To say we have nothing to be forgiven for is to say Christ didn't need to die on the Cross for us that we may be set free from the bondage of sin by faith in what He has done.
NO, that's not what I believe, of course you know that already.
Jesus was not murdered, He laid down His life freely as the sacrifice for mans sin. Man could not pay his sin debt, it was impossible to do and remain alive.
Sin is very serious and a price must be paid for it, a Holy and Just God demands it. So God sent His Son born of the Holy Spirit without a sin nature to live a perfect life on this earth and be the perfect, sin free sacrifice demanded by God. This is the agape love of God, He loved us that much to put His Son in shame and suffering even to the death for us!
To say we have nothing to be forgiven for is to say Christ didn't need to die on the Cross for us that we may be set free from the bondage of sin by faith in what He has done.
You actually believe that the God you describe here is compatible with God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness as revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross and you see NO contradiction or incompatibility, Charlie??? Utterly astounding! Live in peace and God's love, brother!
You actually believe that the God you describe here is compatible with God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness as revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross and you see NO contradiction or incompatibility, Charlie??? Utterly astounding! Live in peace and God's love, brother!
I most certainly believe exactly what I said, because that is what the scripture shows us!
The scripture matters, Mystic! It contains the information that tells us everything God wants us to know!
nope, those scriptures are AFTER the great white throne judgment and the only one without the gates are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Charlie acknowledges this.
So if only the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie are without the gates who is it that has a right to enter the gates a take of the water of life?
Certainly not those who are sinful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Where are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie?
You are on record saying they are in the lake of fire.
Yet the scriptures proclaim they can enter in through the gates into the city and partake of the water of life freely.
Okay, let us suppose that this is the case. It should be clear that they were at one point cast into the lake of fire and that that didn't eradicate from them the sin nature that causes them to be dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, etc.
So, what will?
Are you saying that they will enter through the gates into the city as dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc.?
I most certainly would love to believe that people, after they have been cast into the lake of fire, will be able to enter through the gates into the city, as those who have had their sin nature dealt with (while that biblically does not happen through one's experience in the lake of fire). I think that in order for that to happen, they will have to be born again the same way it happens here on earth...through faith in Jesus Christ.
And therefore, if Universalism be true, everyone will inevitably come to God through faith in Jesus and be born again.
So, my encouragement would be, do it now instead of waiting until after you have been cast into the lake of fire.
And also, since there is the distinct possibility that there will be no second chances after death, that is another good reason to do what will inevitably take place (if Universalism be true) before it is too late (since it may not be inevitable; but if it is, you may as well do it now rather than wait until after you have been cast into the lake of fire). For if it is not inevitable, then there are those who will be in the lake of fire, burning in those flames for all of eternity. But if it is inevitable, you can avoid being cast into the lake of fire and suffering for a season therein, by doing now what is eventually bound to happen anyway...your receiving Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
And, with the distinct possibility that one has the choice of never receiving Christ, for that you make your final decisions about God before you pass into the next life, it is important that you not harden your heart today but that you receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour so that when there is no more opportunity to receive Christ, you will have already made the decision to receive Christ.
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
nope, those scriptures are AFTER the great white throne judgment and the only one without the gates are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Charlie acknowledges this.
So if only the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie are without the gates who is it that has a right to enter the gates a take of the water of life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
Certainly not those who are sinful.
Well scripture says that the only ones outside the gate are those who are sinful, so it should be obvious, because they are the only ones without the gates, that they are the ones who have the right to enter through the gates into the city and partake of the water of life freely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Where are the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie?
You are on record saying they are in the lake of fire.
Yet the scriptures proclaim they can enter in through the gates into the city and partake of the water of life freely.
Quote:
Okay, let us suppose that this is the case. It should be clear that they were at one point cast into the lake of fire and that that didn't eradicate from them the sin nature that causes them to be dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, etc.
So, what will?
Who says the lake of fire did not purify them? When the lake of fire burns up all of the old man nature and they have learned( when God judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness) to keep His commandments they have the right to enter in through the gates into the city and partake of the water of life freely.
Quote:
Are you saying that they will enter through the gates into the city as dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc.?
Will they be committing these sins in heaven?
How, then, can heaven truly be heavenly?
No one can enter in until they are purified of the old man nature.
I most certainly would love to believe that people, after they have been cast into the lake of fire, will be able to enter through the gates into the city, as those who have had their sin nature dealt with (while that biblically does not happen through one's experience in the lake of fire). I think that in order for that to happen, they will have to be born again the same way it happens here on earth...through faith in Jesus Christ.
Why do you say it does not happen biblically speaking when I just finished showing you it does.
Quote:
And therefore, if Universalism be true, everyone will inevitably come to God through faith in Jesus and be born again.
exactly, for every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. All shall come to God through faith in Jesus and be born again
Quote:
So, my encouragement would be, do it now instead of waiting until after you have been cast into the lake of fire.
Quote:
And also, since there is the distinct possibility that there will be no second chances after death, that is another good reason to do what will inevitably take place (if Universalism be true) before it is too late (since it may not be inevitable; but if it is, you may as well do it now rather than wait until after you have been cast into the lake of fire). For if it is not inevitable, then there are those who will be in the lake of fire, burning in those flames for all of eternity. But if it is inevitable, you can avoid being cast into the lake of fire and suffering for a season therein, by doing now what is eventually bound to happen anyway...your receiving Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
Quote:
And, with the distinct possibility that one has the choice of never receiving Christ, for that you make your final decisions about God before you pass into the next life, it is important that you not harden your heart today but that you receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour so that when there is no more opportunity to receive Christ, you will have already made the decision to receive Christ.
I agree we should do it now, however the lake of fire is in operation even now and when we overcome we will no longer be hurt of the fire because we have passed from death to life. Those who have overcome have entered into the city.
again I would encourage all to do a study on the wrath of God, because from the above post you do not have a proper understanding of God wrath nor its purpose.
God came Himself in the flesh as a human so He Himself could endure the wrath and vengeance of our ignorant, savage, and brutal ancestors in a horrendous scourging and crucifixion that He lovingly forgave even His torturers and murderers for because they did not know any better, just to appease His obviously nonexistent wrath and vengeance against us so that He could forgive us for "whatever" we did because we did not know any better and that He Himself actually wanted to forgive us for. Doesn't that seem to be the product of the very primitive imaginations of men, Charlie?
Let's compare that to my version of the Cross,
God came Himself in the flesh as a human so He Himself could bring His perfect agape love to His HUMAN consciousness and endure with agape love and forgiveness a brutal scourging and crucifixion to make His True Nature obvious and also make His Holy Spirit available upon His physical death to ALL human consciousnesses as the Comforter to guide us to the Truth He has "written in our hearts" with agape love.
Which of the two versions is from the imaginations of men and which is compatible with the Holy Spirit of God (Its inspiration) as revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross, seen below?
The Holy Spirit IS the True Nature of God revealed, described, and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. He IS agape love, kindness, mercy, compassion, gentleness, unconditional acceptance, empathy, sympathy, tolerance, long-suffering, decency, friendliness, peacefulness, joyfulness, understanding, care, concern, solicitude, solicitousness, sensitivity, tender-heartedness, soft-heartedness, warm-heartedness, warmth, love, brotherly love, tenderness, gentleness, mercifulness, leniency, lenience, consideration, kindness, humanity, humaneness, kind-heartedness, charity, benevolence, and He is non-judgmental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
To say we have nothing to be forgiven for is to say Christ didn't need to die on the Cross for us that we may be set free from the bondage of sin by faith in what He has done.
Your faith in Jesus is not misplaced, Charlie, but thinking it is why you are saved is undeserved self-congratulation. Jesus IS our Savior. The simple fact is that it is true. You are not saved because of your completely justifiable faith that He is.
It has nothing to do with appeasing a wrathful God for "whatever" you think we need to be forgiven for through such a horrendous blood sacrifice. Jesus as God made it abundantly clear that God has no such wrath or vengeance in Him.
God's wrath is a specific one-time event that occurs at the second coming and at the beginning of the millineal kingdom. The Wrath is not the same thing as the Great White Throne Judgement, but the latter is the final outcome of the former. After the great judgement, the universe is restored in perfection, without spot or blemish, for all eternity. Neither is the wrath the same thing as the Great Tribulation, contrary to many erroneous doctrines of pretribulationists.
It is referred or alluded to variously in both testaments as the Day of the Lord, or Armageddon, or thusly in this passage from Revelation Chapter 14:
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”
14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
14:20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred
God's wrath is a specific one-time event that occurs at the second coming and at the beginning of the millineal kingdom. The Wrath is not the same thing as the Great White Throne Judgement, but the latter is the final outcome of the former. After the great judgement, the universe is restored in perfection, without spot or blemish, for all eternity. Neither is the wrath the same thing as the Great Tribulation, contrary to many erroneous doctrines of pretribulationists.
It is referred or alluded to variously in both testaments as the Day of the Lord, or Armageddon, or thusly in this passage from Revelation Chapter 14:
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”
14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
14:20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred
nope the day of the Lord happens is not a one time event, at least not in the way you understand it, the day of the Lord happens every time people wake up to what He has done.
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