What Is God's Wrath? (paganism, choice, Gospel, believe)

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by justbyfaith

The only way that a man ceases from being a sinner is to be born again of the Holy Spirit, is my contention.

Dogs, sorcerers, and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire but this will not eradicate the sin from their lives...they continue to be dogs, sorcerers and whoremongers.

Now I know that you do not believe that dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc. will enter through the gates into the city while they are still dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc. because you have said so.

Therefore, in order to enter in through the gates into the city, they must be born again.

The same way that a person is born again on the earth...through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross.

If it is inevitable but that you will be born again, you may as well receive it before you are cast into the lake of fire. For "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50)

If it is not inevitable, then if you do not receive it before you are cast into the lake of fire, you will be in the lake of fire for all of eternity. There is no guarantee that if you are outside the city, you will ever "learn to keep His commandments".

There is a guarantee brother and that guarantee is Jesus Christ and what he did for all humanity.

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The specially of those that believe are the firstfruits.

And the firstfruits are the PROMISE of the whole harvest (ALL MEN)

Thus we do have a guarantee JBF.

[justbyfaith]

So, you are trying to tell me that everlasting punishment is not everlasting but merely age-during.

I might be able to accept that, if it didn't mean that the promise of everlasting life in John 3:16 is a promise of mere age-during life.

That would mean that those who receive the promise will live for an indefinite period of time and then be snuffed out.

And, this is not acceptable to me. It is not good news.

What is good news is the following as we read it in the English.

Jhn 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But for that to be true, the following must also be true, as we read it in the English:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If "everlasting" means "age-during" in Matthew 25:46, then it also means "age-during" in John 3:16.

If you can show clearly how we can have everlasting life when the punishment is merely "age-during" then I might even start believing in Universalism. It may be the last hurdle for me to believe as you do.

But I don't think that any of you has an answer for this; because you have not answered it to date in a way that convinces me of your belief.

I am not willing to accept mere "age-during" life as being the promise of the gospel (because it is not good news at all); and therefore I do not see how you are going to convince me that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 is merely "age-during".

But if you can clearly show it, show clearly how we can have "everlasting" life if the punishment is only "age-during".

For is it not the same Greek word?

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by justbyfaith

So, you are trying to tell me that everlasting punishment is not everlasting but merely age-during.

Yes

I might be able to accept that, if it didn't mean that the promise of everlasting life in John 3:16 is a promise of mere age-during life.

That would mean that those who receive the promise will live for an indefinite period of time and then be snuffed out.

And, this is not acceptable to me. It is not good news.

No it does not mean that JBF because our life in Christ is MUCH MORE then aionios life. Our life in Christ spans ALL the aions.

What is good news is the following as we read it in the English.

Jhn 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But for that to be true, the following must also be true, as we read it in the English:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If "everlasting" means "age-during" in Matthew 25:46, then it also means "age-during" in John 3:16.

If you can show clearly how we can have everlasting life when the punishment is merely "age-during" then I might even start believing in Universalism. It may be the last hurdle for me to believe as you do.

But I don't think that any of you has an answer for this; because you have not answered it to date in a way that convinces me of your belief.

I am not willing to accept mere "age-during" life as being the promise of the gospel (because it is not good news at all); and therefore I do not see how you are going to convince me that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 is merely "age-during".

But if you can clearly show it, show clearly how we can have "everlasting" life if the punishment is only "age-during".

For is it not the same Greek word?

I already showed you this brother, but will do so again as you seem at least interested in seeing it.

MUCH MORE then aionios life

Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.

They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Those who believe in eternal torment say those who believe in the salvation of all change the meaning of a word within one sentence, example the above scripture, they say that when aionios is applied to torment the universalist says it only means a limited time period, but when applied to eternal life the universalist say aionios means endless life or a life without end, thus playing with words in order to suite their doctrine.

And I agree, to change the meaning of a word within one sentence is playing with words, but this same playing with words concerning aionios is not just done by those who believe in the salvation of all. Those who believe in eternal torment also must change the meaning of aionios in one sentence.

Example The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at Hab. from the old testament.

Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.


The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we no that they have an end because they bow down.

Now the only way for those who believe in eternal torment can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence when applied to the hills and means something else in the second part of the sentence when applied to God ways. Thus doing the same thing the universalist does with Mt.25:46


But the neither party need change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.



Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.



Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.


But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.

Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.

Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.

The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.

The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.

Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.

Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?

What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.

Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?

These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.

If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.

Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.

Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.

Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by justbyfaith

So, you are trying to tell me that everlasting punishment is not everlasting but merely age-during.

I might be able to accept that, if it didn't mean that the promise of everlasting life in John 3:16 is a promise of mere age-during life.

That would mean that those who receive the promise will live for an indefinite period of time and then be snuffed out.

And, this is not acceptable to me. It is not good news.

What is good news is the following as we read it in the English.

Jhn 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But for that to be true, the following must also be true, as we read it in the English:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If "everlasting" means "age-during" in Matthew 25:46, then it also means "age-during" in John 3:16.

If you can show clearly how we can have everlasting life when the punishment is merely "age-during" then I might even start believing in Universalism. It may be the last hurdle for me to believe as you do.

But I don't think that any of you has an answer for this; because you have not answered it to date in a way that convinces me of your belief.

I am not willing to accept mere "age-during" life as being the promise of the gospel (because it is not good news at all); and therefore I do not see how you are going to convince me that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 is merely "age-during".

But if you can clearly show it, show clearly how we can have "everlasting" life if the punishment is only "age-during".

For is it not the same Greek word?

It is the sameword and it does mean an indefinite time period that is up to God and each individual. We do not all deserve or need the same correction or "pruning" so that is why the kolasis is indefinite. We all may not feel the same as you do about the length of time we want to stay alive.

You assume no end and perhaps that is what God will grant you in accord with your wishes. But not everyone feels the same way and God would certainly accommodate their wishes as well. That is why it is indefinite, JBF. You want to lock God into a contract He can't violate. Does that seem reasonable to you? Don't you trust God not to "snuff" you out against your will???

[justbyfaith]

It is indeed aionios life in John 3:16...nothing more is promised.

Unless you can show me a verse / passage where it is promised that life that spans the ages is given to them that believe.

And it is not good news (the gospel) to believe that everlasting life ever comes to an end.

[Jerwade]

If I told my daughter to go out and play today, does that mean she will not be able play the day after? Of course not! Now, if I informed my other daughter that she is being punished today, does that mean she will be punished the following day? Of course not! Now, did the first daughters life end? What about the second daughter? Of course not, the only thing that ended was the duration of her punishment. I suppose any fifth-grader would understand this, when in comes to John 3:16 and that of Matthew 25:46.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes him should not perish (remain lost), but have aionion life.

Or, if you prefer that of abundant life, whereas:

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into aionion punishment (correction), but the righteous into aionion life.


My granddaughter who is in the Autism Spectrum understands this, what about, Charlie and JBF?

[Charlie24]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

If I told my daughter to go out and play tomorrow, does that mean she will not be able play the day after? Of course not! Now, if I informed my other daughter that she is being punished tomorrow, does that mean she will be punished the following day? Of course not! Now, did the first daughters life end? What about the second daughter? Of course not, the only thing that ended was the duration of her punishment. I suppose any fifth-grader would understand this, when in comes to John 3:16 and that of Matthew 25:46.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes him should not perish (remain lost), but have aionion life.

Or, if you prefer that of abundant life, whereas:

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into aionion punishment (correction), but the righteous into aionion life.


My granddaughter who is in the Autism Spectrum understands this, what about, Charlie and JBF?

Nothing in scripture says that your daughter will be here to play tomorrow!

Nothing in scripture says there will be a second chance after death!

You are gambling with a losing hand of cards! But so be it if you are that bold!

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Charlie24

Nothing in scripture says that your daughter will be here to play tomorrow!

Nothing in scripture says there will be a second chance after death!

You are gambling with a losing hand of cards! But so be it if you are that bold!

In other words, it boils down to the fear of your own mortality, although it is not talking about eternity.

[Charlie24]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

In other words, it boils down to the fear of your own mortality, although it is not talking about eternity.

Only fear for those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Saviour, OR those who think they have but have not repented of their sins!

These are the ones who will experience fear when their day comes to leave this world!

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Charlie24

Only fear for those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Saviour, OR those who think they have but have not repented of their sins!

These are the ones who will experience fear when their day comes to leave this world!

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie ...one of the wrath brothers.