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From Jesus on the Cross. His revelation of God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness is unambiguous and completely devoid of wrath and vengeance. Your blind acceptance of the OT wrathful God of Moses blinds your heart to the True Nature of God.
From Jesus on the Cross. His revelation of God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness is unambiguous and completely devoid of wrath and vengeance. Your blind acceptance of the OT wrathful God of Moses blinds your heart to the True Nature of God.
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Originally Posted by justbyfaith
Where do you get your information about Jesus on the Cross?
Where did it originally come from?
The same source you use, JBF. The difference is I actually see the true significance of God Himself enduring and tolerating the vengeance and wrath of our savage and brutal ancestors with perfect agape love and forgiveness, even for His torturers and murderers because "We know not what we do." Under those conditions, there can be no doubt about the True Nature of God.
Your interpretation of what He did as a response to His own demand for a blood sacrifice to appease Himself enough to forgive us for "whatever" should never have even been considered! It is a rationalization in support of the wrath and damnation doctrine of the Roman Church, period!
Mystic, I'm afraid you twist the meaning of propitiation in holy scripture to apply it to "our savage human ancestors" when the wrath that is appeased is the emotion that God has concerning sin in the lives of unbelievers.
If the wrath that is appeased is that of our human ancestors, I find that I do not need the Cross; because the wrath of our human ancestors has no bearing on me today.
But if the wrath that is appeased is the wrath of a holy God against the sin of unbelievers, then that wrath does have bearing on me today because God is looking down on me from His position of being outside of time and therefore no matter where I am in history, the wrath of the Lord has bearing on my life.
And of course I do need the Cross; and the Cross is in fact the only redemption from the penalty of sin that we all need.
Mystic, I'm afraid you twist the meaning of propitiation in holy scripture to apply it to "our savage human ancestors" when the wrath that is appeased is the emotion that God has concerning sin in the lives of unbelievers.
If the wrath that is appeased is that of our human ancestors, I find that I do not need the Cross; because the wrath of our human ancestors has no bearing on me today.
But if the wrath that is appeased is the wrath of a holy God against the sin of unbelievers, then that wrath does have bearing on me today because God is looking down on me from His position of being outside of time and therefore no matter where I am in history, the wrath of the Lord has bearing on my life.
And of course, I do need the Cross; and the Cross is in fact the only redemption from the penalty of sin that we all need.
You are so sadly misled. There is no wrath in God because there is no wrath in Jesus who came as God in the flesh to show exactly that!!! You are concerned about something that does not exist. The effect of our failures (sins) on our fate as "born again" spirits DOES exist and must be addressed.
You are wrong that we do not need Jesus because without Him our inability to achieve perfection in following the law will still be reflected in our inability to achieve perfect agape love of God and each other. Jesus's accomplishment as a human on the Cross eliminated the need for us to achieve perfection. But we still need to make some effort to get as close to God and Jesus as we can. It is our failures that will need to be remedied during kolasis if we do not do it while we're alive.
What it comes down to, mystic, is whether or not one believes the testimony of all of holy scripture.
You have made your case that all of scripture is not to be trusted which amounts to smorgasborg religion.
You believe that the things in scripture about God's wrath and justice (judgment) against sin are not in accordance with God's agape love.
But, where did you first hear about God's agape love in the first place?
From holy scripture.
So, you accept some scripture while you deny that other scripture is even inspired.
I believe that this is based on your predetermined bias against God being a God of justice and wrath (judgment) against sin.
While He is a God of justice and wrath (judgment) against sin; and this is exemplified by Jesus when He died on the Cross; for He took the penalty for our sins on that Cross and this was justice in order that He might show mercy to the sinner (Romans 3:26).
You deny the inspiration of scripture, therefore, that teaches against your predetermined bias.
This is not a lie, mystic; while you will most assuredly try to say that it is a lie.
Last edited by justbyfaith; 09-11-2021 at 11:20 PM..
You are so sadly misled. There is no wrath in God because there is no wrath in Jesus who came as God in the flesh to show exactly that!!! You are concerned about something that does not exist. The effect of our failures (sins) on our fate as "born again" spirits DOES exist and must be addressed.
You are wrong that we do not need Jesus because without Him our inability to achieve perfection in following the law will still be reflected in our inability to achieve perfect agape love of God and each other. Jesus's accomplishment as a human on the Cross eliminated the need for us to achieve perfection. But we still need to make some effort to get as close to God and Jesus as we can. It is our failures that will need to be remedied during kolasis if we do not do it while we're alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
What it comes down to, mystic, is whether or not one believes the testimony of all of holy scripture.
You have made your case that all of scripture is not to be trusted which amounts to smorgasborg religion.
You believe that the things in scripture about God's wrath and jusitice against sin are not in accordance with God's agape love.
You accept MEN's assertion that all of scripture is holy scripture. I TEST the scripture against the Holy Spirit of God to make sure it is holy. You do NOT! You are blindly accepting all scripture as holy which is why you err. I test all scripture to use only that which is holy. That is not a smorgasbord, that is intelligent and wise. You are the blind leading the blind.
But, where did you first hear about God's agape love in the first place?
From holy scripture.[/quote] I get it from the reaction of God Himself to the scourging and crucifixion He enduring from our savage and brutal ancestors. He smote no one. He exhibited not the slightest hint of wrath or vengeance toward them He loved us all, including His torturers and murderers saying "Forgive them Father they know not what they do." That is NOT a wrathful God! That is an agape loving and forgiving God!
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So, you accept some scripture while you deny that other scripture is even inspired.
Wrong. I reinterpret scripture that is NOT holy so that it is compatible with the Holy Spirit of agape love that makes it holy scripture.
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I believe that this is based on your predetermined bias against God being a God of justice and wrath (judgment) against sin.
I have no bias against God's justice but I believe in Jesus who has no wrath. God's justice is not our flawed and imperfect punitive justice. His is Divine Justice and balances the scales for everyone, perpetrators and victims alike without resort to punishment. Punishment never achieves any kind of justice, just vengeance.
Pretending that Jesus took the punishment for us to appease God's wrath is preposterous. He IS God and He has no wrath to appease! Your convoluted rationalization to try to make it appear as if His scourging and crucifixion were to appease God is irrational!
The holy scriptures claim to be wholly inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I will accept that claim; and I will believe that all of scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
What is the definition for scripture but that it is that which is written?
And the holy scriptures (the Protestant kjv of the Holy Bible) are able to make me wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15).
The holy scriptures claim to be wholly inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Which is a wholly unsubstantiated claim and frankly a wholly unsubstantiatable claim. The ONLY scripture that is Holy is that which is compatible and consistent with God's Holy Spirit, period! Our ONLY standard of God's Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ on the Cross!! Everything you believe from reading the OT and Moses and the scripture interpreted using Moses is WRONG!!! They were interpreted using the wrong Nature of God and they violate God's Holy Spirit as revealed unambiguously by Jesus Christ on the Cross!!!
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I will accept that claim; and I will believe that all of scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
What is the definition for scripture but that it is that which is written?
And the holy scriptures (the Protestant kjv of the Holy Bible) are able to make me wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15).
Know that you accept that claim in defiance and REFUSAL to make sure they ARE holy scripture using the revelations of Jesus Christ on the Cross, so when you are asked why you accepted the claim, better have a good excuse ready!! The same goes for your ridiculous beliefs about the KJV of the Bible because neither of those claims displays any "faith in Jesus Christ." They show just the opposite faith in the claims of men in defiance and rejection of the revelations of Jesus Christ about God's True Nature and Holy Spirit!!!
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