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::Sigh:: As usual in some dogma-driven translations, they ignore even obvious indications of the true meaning using the many alternative possible meanings of the words.
John 3:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
born again = gennaō anōthen
gennaō = conceived, begotten
anōthen = from the beginning (over again)
This version is clearly confirmed as born over again (reborn) by the second verse from Nicodemus.
John 3:6-8 (King James Version)
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
I would like any one of the "born again" Christians in their physical bodies to "bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth" because "so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
These passages suggest that we will be born over again after our death as a Spirit because we obviously cannot be born all over again as a Spirit while still in our mortal body. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies.
This is contrary to your beliefs that you are “born again” while still alive in your mortal body. This after-death concept is reinforced in 1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.
The verse in question is merely saying that those who are led of the Spirit are not predictable to the world around them; for they are led by the Spirit in the way that they lead their lives.
It should be clear, also, that the immediate context of John 3:3 is John 3:16.
Last edited by justbyfaith; 08-06-2021 at 12:36 AM..
Yes, if you don't mind, I would be interested, thanks. I still do not quite understand the death of the spirit Adam experienced. How can a body be without spirit? Isn't a soul a body and spirit ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Ok I will see if I can find it, I know we spoke of it on CD but I believe we actually started the long debate on tentmaker. I would like to find the start as I believe that is where most of your questions are related to.
As to this question
The spiritual death has nothing to do with our physical body, soul and spirit it is speaking of the law which is spiritual and a ministration of death. The law is really cool when you start to contemplate on it and apply it to the scriptures.
It is spiritual
It is a ministration of death
It is a schoolmaster
It leads us to Christ
It gives us the knowledge of good and evil or sin
Some are under the law (spiritually dead)
Some the law has no power over (spiritually alive)
It is the wrath of God
and so much more.
Nuts I could not find the post where me and "thy kingdom come" first started our long debate that lasted from tentmaker to CD and finally ended here. However I did find (I think) where we started off here and finished here, plus another one that fits right in with the same theme. these threads are quite long zero but you will really get a clear picture of the different views within Universalsim (as most of those in the discussion are universalist) and whether or not we have freewill.
what you believe to be true, is not what Jehovah God wanted those who worshiped him to believe. you said "In order to consider God wrathful and vengeful we would need to ignore the context that controlled our ancient ancestors' recorded interpretations of any inspirations from God." first!, Jehovah didn't just use anyone to write down his words, he picked who he wanted. and it was by means of his Holy Spirit. he told his Faithful servant Daniel to write down words that wasn't meant for him to understand. but for the time of the END, it was meant for US. since we are living in the "LAST DAYS." ,(Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased).
see also (Dan. 12:8-10 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand). Peter who was WITH Jesus wrote this ,(2Pet. 1:20,21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost). what was written, was written for those in the last days, (Rom.15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope).
assuming you're referring to the bad decisions that the people made. it was NOT God but man himself. are you then saying that the bad in which man do today. it's only because God made them do it? men, then and NOW are responsible for their own wicked actions and the bad decisions that we make. which causes their troubles, not God! and they did NOT see God as an wrathful and vengeful Being, who needed them to make peace with him through blood sacrifices. they had to do animal sacrifices because they were IMPERFECT, and they needed mediating blood in order for there prayers to reach God. today we have Jesus Perfect Blood ,which paved the way for our prayer to reach Jehovah, (1Pet. 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot). Notice we don't do any animal sacrifices a those did in the days of old?
you said "God wants us to succeed NOT please Him by obedience." NOT TRUE, they were punish strictly for being Disobedient, just as Adam and Eve was. if the Israelites had totally Obeyed Jehovah God. he wouldn't either had to punish them himself, or allowed their enemies to take them as captives. true, Christians are to "attain spiritual maturity." but you're wrong when you say that "Jesus was sent, NOT to pay for some ill-described "sins of mankind", because he was! Jesus even TOLD US THAT!, (John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life). I think he would KNOW!
you said "Try to interpret what they must have meant" concerning God's love. these Men meant exactly what they wrote because it was the "GOD of Love" by means of his H.S., who directed them. so to "interpret" these words any other way other than what it was meant. would be to change his words, which MANY had done! "Reject the concept" of what this God plan to do with those who refuse to be Obedient. is NOT going to stop him from doing what he chooses to soon do! (Colo. 3:6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience). Man DID FALL by means of the "ORIGINAL SIN." and though he's a God of Love, he's NOT one to be mocked. he can get anger and he does takes vengeance. as he have said ,(Rom. 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord). get it right!
you believe Jesus didn't get angry? maybe you should read when he turn the tables of those who were being dishonest towards the customers, (Matt. 21:12,13). you don't think Jesus was angry when he came down on the Pharisees? ,(Matt. 23: 13-16 and Luke 11: 42-44). true Jesus showed much love, but like his Father, he didn't play! and "Spiritual Solid Food" are for those who have matured Spiritually. some are still on the milk stages ,(Heb. 5:12-14 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil). peace
I would add what it says in the following scripture.
Mar 3:4, And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Mar 3:5, And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
The verse in question is merely saying that those who are led of the Spirit are not predictable to the world around them; for they are led by the Spirit in the way that they lead their lives.
It should be clear, also, that the immediate context of John 3:3 is John 3:16.
No. It is saying it is an actual rebirth as Spirit which requires our physical death first!. What you are referring to is the effect of being "conceived by God" (inseminated with the seed of God's Holy Spirit) which happens every time we love. The "soil" it lands on (state of mind of our character and circumstances) determines its progression (30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold).
1 John 4:7-8 King James Version 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Greek Word Studies : Born (begotten, father of, conceived) (1080)(gennao)
(gennao from genos = offspring, in turn from ginomai = to become) means to beget, to generate. To beget Is spoken of men (Mt 1:2-16), whereas to bear is spoken of women. The passive voice means to be begotten. In other words, this literally refers to the biblical sense of "knowing" (begetting) at the spiritual level.
No. It is saying it is an actual rebirth as Spirit which requires our physical death first!. What you are referring to is the effect of being "conceived by God" (inseminated with the seed of God's Holy Spirit) which happens every time we love. The "soil" it lands on (state of mind of our character and circumstances) determines its progression (30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold).
1 John 4:7-8 King James Version 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Greek Word Studies : Born (begotten, father of, conceived) (1080)(gennao)
(gennao from genos = offspring, in turn from ginomai = to become) means to beget, to generate. To beget Is spoken of men (Mt 1:2-16), whereas to bear is spoken of women. The passive voice means to be begotten. In other words, this literally refers to the biblical sense of "knowing" (begetting) at the spiritual level.
It is not complicated, BF. My version of God is more compatible with the True Nature of God's Holy Spirit of agape love unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross. That makes it more CHRISTian than the wrathful and vengeful version you follow, IMO. YMMV
How do you know? I keep asking this. You have not given me a reason to believe you have a "better" view or one that is "more compatible". It's not supported by what God has actually said about himself. So why should we believe it?
It is not complicated, BF. My version of God is more compatible with the True Nature of God's Holy Spirit of agape love unambiguously demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross. That makes it more CHRISTian than the wrathful and vengeful version you follow, IMO. YMMV
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
How do you know? I keep asking this. You have not given me a reason to believe you have a "better" view or one that is "more compatible". It's not supported by what God has actually said about himself. So why should we believe it?
You believe what MEN have said God said, BF. That is evident. I believe what men have said that AGREES with the God that I have encountered and EXPERIENCED. That is the basic difference. I would ask why you believe so completely ALL the many inconsistent and contradictory things MEN have said God said????
Yes. And your response is to tell me what you claim. I'm sorry. I don't believe you.
So you want me to believe what YOU say and claim. Sorry. I have zero reason to believe you. No one has any reason to believe you over anyone else.
What reason do you have to believe this consciousness is who it claimed to be?
And I'll ask the same thing of you. Why? Why should we believe what you say and not what God has said?
Because mine is ALL consistent and NOT contradictory, including with the science we have so far discovered about our Reality. What you believe is NOT consistent and IS contradictory indicating the flawed and fallible imprint of human errors and corruption.
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