Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
“Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” (Matthew 4:10)
The Greek word for worship is “proskuneo.”
4352. proskuneó ►
Strong's Concordance
proskuneó: to do reverence to
Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Definition: to do reverence to
Usage: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.
HELPS Word-studies
4352 proskynéō (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") – properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready "to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one's knees" (DNTT); to "do obeisance" (BAGD).
["The basic meaning of 4352 (proskynéō), in the opinion of most scholars, is to kiss. . . . On Egyptian reliefs worshipers are represented with outstretched hand throwing a kiss to (pros-) the deity" (DNTT, 2, 875,876).
4352 (proskyneō) has been (metaphorically) described as "the kissing-ground" between believers (the Bride) and Christ (the heavenly Bridegroom). While this is true, 4352 (proskynéō) suggests the willingness to make all necessary physical gestures of obeisance.]
Are you opposed to kissing or bowing in any form or context other than in the worship of God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissKate12
The Greek word for serve is “latreuo.”
◄ 3000. latreuó ►
Strong's Concordance
latreuó: to serve
Original Word: λατρεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: latreuó
Phonetic Spelling: (lat-ryoo'-o)
Definition: to serve
Usage: I serve, especially God, perhaps simply: I worship.
We are all called to serve others. In doing this, we are serving God. Surely you wouldn't disagree with that...
"Full of grace... To impart grace is proper to God alone, Who is the King of glory, immortal and invisible. To Him only belongs by right of dominion this supernatural good: none but He is its primary dispenser. However, the distribution of the treasure of grace is regulated by wise and provident laws. Just as the princes of the earth have ministers to distribute their largess, so also the King of Heaven has willed that His riches should be distributed by the sage bounty of her who, by privilege, has received the plenitude thereof. She intercedes as a Daughter, she commands as a Mother; and at her voice the gifts of Heaven are lavished upon men. It is not therefore for herself only that Mary is full of grace, she is so, on our account as well; and this is the precise meaning of the glorious title with which the voice of the Christian people at large loves to call her: Mother of divine grace.
...In fine, is it not by and through Mary that sinners obtain their return to grace, and the just their final perseverance? Yes! all the benefits of conversion, of sanctification and of salvation which God has granted or shall ever grant to men, from the first grace of repentance given to Adam after his fall, down to that grace of final perseverance which shall secure the heavenly kingdom to the last of God's elect, must come from Jesus Christ by the mediation of Mary.
Indeed, how eloquent are those countless ex-votos, which in the sanctuaries of Mary testify to the gratitude of the faithful toward this Divine Mother, for the graces they have received by her intercession! Ah, let those fly to Mary with all confidence who feel the need of the succors of grace: this Mother so full of mercy will never abandon them."
Another excerpt from The Fairest Flower of Paradise explaining how and why we can call the Blessed Mother our “Co-Redemptress”:
How did Mary take part in our redemption? In the first place, by obtaining for us, through her ardent desires and fervent prayers, the accomplishment of the great mystery of the Incarnation; secondly, by consenting to become Mother of the Word, giving to Him that humanity of ours, by which He was to save us; finally, by offering Jesus to the Eternal Father as a victim of propitiation and suffering together with Him woes without measure to satisfy the punishment due for our sins.
Such being the case, it is the duty of every Christian to compassionate the dolors which Mary, in cooperating with Jesus in the work of our redemption, did suffer for love of us: “Forget not the groanings of thy mother” (Ecc. 7:29). Not charity alone, but justice also prompts us to share in the sorrows of the Mother of God, for it was for us solely that she suffered. Happy he, whose devotion impels him, not only to pay homage to Mary’s greatness, but also to nourish a tender compassion for her sorrows: he can but partake in the priceless boon of the Redemption. “May we obtain, O Virgin Mary, salvation through the wounds of Jesus Christ!” (Office of the Seven Dolors).
Let us not, then, forget in our acts of homage, in our affection, in our thanksgivings, to join in one our most holy Redeemer and His Mother, for it is to Mary, after Jesus, that we owe our salvation. In the passion of Jesus and the sorrows of Mary God has placed all our hope of salvation. It is just, therefore, that we proclaim Mary Co-Redemptress of the human race, and honor her as such. This is the most beautiful title that we can give her, because it sums up all the benefits we owe her as our Mother. It is the end of her singular predestination, the principal motive of her Immaculate Conception, the source of her incomparable glory.
Without Christianity, it is impossible to avoid hell apart from a miraculous intervention from God or the Blessed Mother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
How do you claim that you don't view Mary as some sort of goddess when you put her on the same level of God?
She is not a goddess because she is a human, a creature created by God. She is not on the same level as God, and nothing about my post implies that.
In John 2, she intervened on behalf of the wedding party and alerted her Son that the wine had run out. Because of her intervention, Jesus turned the water into wine.
This type of intervention is what I was referring to. If a person in their soul's distress calls out to the Mother of God for assistance, perhaps Jesus will grant that person salvation because of the pleas of His Mother, and not because of any merit in that person.
She is not a goddess because she is a human, a creature created by God. She is not on the same level as God, and nothing about my post implies that.
The statement I quoted said that unless God OR Mary miraculously intervened. That "OR" indicates that it takes either God or her to intervene for salvation. So I'm not sure how you could say that it wouldn't imply that.
Quote:
In John 2, she intervened on behalf of the wedding party and alerted her Son that the wine had run out. Because of her intervention, Jesus turned the water into wine.
Jesus' own words that it wasn't his time yet informs us that his intention was not to make the wine. But she asked him to. Scripture actually tells us though that he now sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and that anyone that believes in him is saved. There is no question of him wanting to. We don't need his mother asking him on our behalf.
Quote:
This type of intervention is what I was referring to. If a person in their soul's distress calls out to the Mother of God for assistance, perhaps Jesus will grant that person salvation because of the pleas of His Mother, and not because of any merit in that person.
Again, Jesus said he'd save all that come to him, we don't need Mom asking on our behalf.
Jesus' own words that it wasn't his time yet informs us that his intention was not to make the wine. But she asked him to. Scripture actually tells us though that he now sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and that anyone that believes in him is saved. There is no question of him wanting to. We don't need his mother asking him on our behalf.
Again, Jesus said he'd save all that come to him, we don't need Mom asking on our behalf.
Since God ordains the ends of human salvation as well as the means; wouldn't it be possible that for some, God has ordained the means of their salvation to be through the intercession of His Mother?
Whatever we may *need* in a technical sense is not really relevant here. Christianity is not a religion of pragmatism or a German-style mechanical efficiency. God is not pragmatic. God does not restrict His Goodness towards us to what we *need* at a bare-minimum level. Rather, God lavishes His children with gifts that are much greater than we could ever fully use. "My cup runneth over".
What greater gift could Jesus have given to mankind - apart from His own Self - than His own Mother?
She is not a goddess because she is a human, a creature created by God. She is not on the same level as God, and nothing about my post implies that.
In John 2, she intervened on behalf of the wedding party and alerted her Son that the wine had run out. Because of her intervention, Jesus turned the water into wine.
This type of intervention is what I was referring to. If a person in their soul's distress calls out to the Mother of God for assistance, perhaps Jesus will grant that person salvation because of the pleas of His Mother, and not because of any merit in that person.
"The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." (James 5:16)
The statement I quoted said that unless God OR Mary miraculously intervened. That "OR" indicates that it takes either God or her to intervene for salvation. So I'm not sure how you could say that it wouldn't imply that.
Even if God OR Mary intervenes, it doesn't mean that Mary is on the same 'level' as God. While God is ALL powerful, others have SOME of that power.
Quote:
Jesus' own words that it wasn't his time yet informs us that his intention was not to make the wine. But she asked him to. Scripture actually tells us though that he now sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and that anyone that believes in him is saved. There is no question of him wanting to. We don't need his mother asking him on our behalf.
And yet, so many have received what they're asking for THROUGH Mary, on her intersession.
Go figure...
Quote:
Again, Jesus said he'd save all that come to him, we don't need Mom asking on our behalf.
But the bible DOES say, "Honor thy father and thy mother." Mary is our spiritual mother, and she deserves honor.
I think of it this way, BF. God is the 'CEO'. As the CEO, God has the power (and the right) to delegate. After all, didn't God the Father delegate to his Son?
Why then, would it be so wrong for God to delegate to whomever He wants?
Even if God OR Mary intervenes, it doesn't mean that Mary is on the same 'level' as God. While God is ALL powerful, others have SOME of that power.
Again. Read his statement. Saying "if God or Mary". He didn't say "If Mary asks God". He said if Mary intervenes.
Quote:
And yet, so many have received what they're asking for THROUGH Mary, on her intersession.
Go figure...
I'd like some evidence of that, please.
Quote:
But the bible DOES say, "Honor thy father and thy mother." Mary is our spiritual mother, and she deserves honor.
I think of it this way, BF. God is the 'CEO'. As the CEO, God has the power (and the right) to delegate. After all, didn't God the Father delegate to his Son?
Why then, would it be so wrong for God to delegate to whomever He wants?
Because God never told us to ask Mary to ask Jesus. Jesus said we can go directly to the Father through him.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
