September 15 - Feast of the Seven Dolours [Sorrows] of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Holy Spirit, Christ)

[Mink57]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Again. Read his statement. Saying "if God or Mary". He didn't say "If Mary asks God". He said if Mary intervenes.

So? He also didn't say that Mary intervenes on her own.

I'd like some evidence of that, please.

Evidence of what? That some people have SAID that they've prayed to Mary, asking for her help and received it?

If that's the case, there are website all over the place stating that Mary has helped them.

Because God never told us to ask Mary to ask Jesus. Jesus said we can go directly to the Father through him.

You're right. God never told us to ask Mary to ask Jesus...

...in. the. BIBLE.

But see, Catholics don't believe that the "bible" is the ONLY source. And Jesus, never, EVER said it was.

Seriously, where in the bible does it say -- from Jesus' words -- that once he spoke, he will never speak to any other again?

[CCCyou]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Because God never told us to ask Mary to ask Jesus. Jesus said we can go directly to the Father through him.

Scripture tells us to "pray for one another" - certainly you've asked others to pray for you?

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by Mink57

So? He also didn't say that Mary intervenes on her own.

That's what the "or" means. Logically, the "OR" means only one or the other are necessary. Not both.

Evidence of what? That some people have SAID that they've prayed to Mary, asking for her help and received it?

If that's the case, there are website all over the place stating that Mary has helped them.

There are also people claiming they're Jesus, and all sorts of other crazy stuff.

You're right. God never told us to ask Mary to ask Jesus...

...in. the. BIBLE.

But see, Catholics don't believe that the "bible" is the ONLY source. And Jesus, never, EVER said it was.

Seriously, where in the bible does it say -- from Jesus' words -- that once he spoke, he will never speak to any other again?

And that's the thing. God also never said a lot of things. But we don't base doctrine off of what God didn't say.

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by CCCyou

Scripture tells us to "pray for one another" - certainly you've asked others to pray for you?

Honestly...I've heard this excuse before. It doesn't explain the demi-goddess level of exultation that people have placed on Mary. Yes, I'll pray for you, as well. But no one will or should build a shrine to me.

[EscAlaMike]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Honestly...I've heard this excuse before. It doesn't explain the demi-goddess level of exultation that people have placed on Mary. Yes, I'll pray for you, as well. But no one will or should build a shrine to me.

What explains the "level of exultation that people have placed on Mary" is our desire to honor our Mother. Since Jesus obeys the commandment perfectly, we never have to worry about honoring her more than He Himself does.

We have shrines to honor all kinds of people, things, and events. A shrine is just a sacred space for the purpose of honoring someone or something.

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by EscAlaMike

What explains the "level of exultation that people have placed on Mary" is our desire to honor our Mother.

She isn't our mother.

Since Jesus obeys the commandment perfectly, we never have to worry about honoring her more than He Himself does.

Why is that even a standard? So what? Nevermind that nowhere do we see any indication from Jesus to pray to her.

We have shrines to honor all kinds of people, things, and events. A shrine is just a sacred space for the purpose of honoring someone or something.

OK? And?

[Mink57]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

That's what the "or" means. Logically, the "OR" means only one or the other are necessary. Not both.

So you say...

There are also people claiming they're Jesus, and all sorts of other crazy stuff.

Yes, there is some crazy stuff out there. But not ALL of it is crazy.

And that's the thing. God also never said a lot of things. But we don't base doctrine off of what God didn't say.

Well, yeah. Actually, some us GET that God didn't stop trying to talk to us 2000+ years ago.

Just because God is the highest authority, it doesn't necessarily mean that His authority is ONLY found in the bible.

The bible itself doesn't say any such thing.

[EscAlaMike]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

She isn't our mother.

If Jesus is our Brother, then she most certainly is our Mother. Also, the Church has always understood Jesus's words from the cross "Behold your mother" as Jesus giving His Mother more broadly to the Church.

[CCCyou]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

Honestly...I've heard this excuse before. It doesn't explain the demi-goddess level of exultation that people have placed on Mary. Yes, I'll pray for you, as well. But no one will or should build a shrine to me.

No human can ever Honor Mary more than God Himself did by allowing a SAVIOR for ALL of mankind to come to us THROUGH HER. Period.

With this in mind, Mary should always be the FIRST human that we ask to pray for us!

[CCCyou]

Originally Posted by BaptistFundie

She isn't our mother.

If Mary/the Church isn't your mother, then who was your mother when you were re-born?