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MAINSTREAM denominations teach that we are to revere the saints and be grateful for their intercession. There are authorized cults around Mary, the mother of Jesus, St. Jude, and probably 6,231 other saints.
Mary was the mother of Jesus. That's not just chopped liver. That oughta MEAN something. Still, the devotions revolving around Mary, particularly in the Roman Church, I find to be misguided and disturbing.
Take those novenas and such; add them to generations' worth of lousy, inadequate teaching by pastors, and you end up with a misdirected flock.
Churchill said: "The best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter." He was correct. And in my experience, 90% of the Catholic faithful are equally as confused and ignorant.
*And you're not allowed to reply to my words here by just quoting Catholic references which we know already approve of and authorize such devotional practices. That would involve zero thought, simply to quote from some source you already prefer. .....I even think there is room for such devotional liturgies; but the way they are currently being done is atrociously awful.
Anecdotal fact: I was best friends with a guy, and was his Best Man. His wife remarked to me: "We have a lot in common, don't we, religiously? You just don't worship Mary, right?"
The perfect illustration, it seems to me.
(And did Mary remain a sexual virgin all her life? I think not. Even the Infancy Narratives refer to her "first-born," Jesus.)
I'm just curious... Do you affiliated with any of the Christian denominations or are you non-denominational? I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to figure you out from day one.
I'm just curious... Do you affiliated with any of the Christian denominations or are you non-denominational? I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to figure you out from day one.
I get the impression that he was trained in seminary (basically Catholic, I believe) but is now what I would call a "freelance" minister.
I'm just curious... Do you affiliated with any of the Christian denominations or are you non-denominational? I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to figure you out from day one.
Giggle.
Raised Roman Catholic. Good, well behaved, devout altar boy. Attended Catholic parochial school. Catholic High School. Catholic College. Then undergrad Seminary. Then graduate-level Theological Seminary.
Finished Catholic Seminary. But did not get ordained. Decided to marry a Presbyterian-USA seminarian. Was not required, but recommended that I get a supplemental degree from a PC-USA seminary, so I did. Then I got ordained in the Presbyterian Church-USA. But that was never a good fit. "A camel is a horse put together by a committee." EVERYTHING in the Presby-USA denomination is done by committee.
By the time I left the Roman Church, I was already leaning toward the exits. Awful preaching, except on campus. And I experienced a true bifurcation in terms of belief and what was being taught. Too many are still living and thinking as if we are still in the Middle Ages. But then I'd go to class and be exposed to stimulating new ideas and presentations. And we used references from lots of different denominations. We were not afraid to be ecumenical. ...Until I walked the two blocks back to the residence. Ugh!
Retired now, attending the Episcopal Cathedral downtown. Happy not to be involved in silly, pre-decided meetings, and all of the internal bull-fecal politics. Trivial junk elevated to the level of actual issues. I can't say that's the way it is at St. Andrew's downtown, because I just don't know. Back East, the Canon put me on a committee, and I'm not even a member of the Episcopal Church. That was gratifying. I won't join officially because I have been screwed-over too many times and don't want to give the Presby apparatus an excuse to kill my pension.
A side note: all of the Cath. bishops I had to deal with seem all to have had their personalities and sense of humor surgically removed.
You're the first one to ask, so I'll presume to list these places where I graduated with degrees:
St. Mary's, Baltimore.
Gonzaga University, Spokane
Princeton Theological Sem, Princeton, N.J.
I loved school. If I could have stayed in and made a living out of being a STUDENT, I'd have done it!
Last edited by sitonmywhat; 03-31-2023 at 04:47 PM..
Raised Roman Catholic. Good, well behaved, devout altar boy. Attended Catholic parochial school. Catholic High School. Catholic College. Then undergrad Seminary. Then graduate-level Theological Seminary.
Finished Catholic Seminary. But did not get ordained. Decided to marry a Presbyterian-USA seminarian. Was not required, but recommended that I get a supplemental degree from a PC-USA seminary, so I did. Then I got ordained in the Presbyterian Church-USA. But that was never a good fit. "A camel is a horse put together by a committee." EVERYTHING in the Presby-USA denomination is done by committee.
By the time I left the Roman Church, I was already leaning toward the exits. Awful preaching, except on campus. And I experienced a true bifurcation in terms of belief and what was being taught. Too many are still living and thinking as if we are still in the Middle Ages. But then I'd go to class and be exposed to stimulating new ideas and presentations. And we used references from lots of different denominations. We were not afraid to be ecumenical. ...Until I walked the two blocks back to the residence. Ugh!
Retired now, attending the Episcopal Cathedral downtown. Happy not to be involved in silly, pre-decided meetings, and all of the internal bull-fecal politics. Trivial junk elevated to the level of actual issues. I can't say that's the way it is at St. Andrew's downtown, because I just don't know. Back East, the Canon put me on a committee, and I'm not even a member of the Episcopal Church. That was gratifying. I won't join officially because I have been screwed-over too many times and don't want to give the Presby apparatus an excuse to kill my pension.
A side note: all of the Cath. bishops I had to deal with seem all to have had their personalities and sense of humor surgically removed.
You're the first one to ask, so I'll presume to list these places where I graduated with degrees:
St. Mary's, Baltimore.
Gonzaga University, Spokane
Princeton Theological Sem, Princeton, N.J.
I loved school. If I could have stayed in and made a living out of being a STUDENT, I'd have done it!
Well then I guess if you are not One with Christ then Mary is not Your mother.
Again. That's a HUGE leap of logic. At no point did anyone call Mary their mother, other than Jesus. There is no record of that in the NT. The closest thing we have to it is Jesus entrusting her to John. But there are no writings in the NT giving her this weird mystical status as "mother" of the church.
Again. That's a HUGE leap of logic. At no point did anyone call Mary their mother, other than Jesus. There is no record of that in the NT. The closest thing we have to it is Jesus entrusting her to John. But there are no writings in the NT giving her this weird mystical status as "mother" of the church.
Yes, John 19:25-29; “Woman, behold your son!” ,
and to John “Behold your mother!”
Perhaps you can explain why Jesus needed to do this?
Was He just fulfilling the requirements of one of the 613 mitzva (on widows with no other children!), or did He establish something new? - Can you explain??
Yes, John 19:25-29; “Woman, behold your son!” ,
and to John “Behold your mother!”
Perhaps you can explain why Jesus needed to do this?
Was He just fulfilling the requirements of one of the 613 mitzva (on widows with no other children!), or did He establish something new? - Can you explain??
His brothers likely didn't believe in him. Remember, they thought he was nuts. So her other sons weren't there to care for her.
Why do you keep pulling these strange quotes out of nowhere and just assuming that I agree with your strange reading of it? You aren't explaining anything. Nothing in that quote suggests she has special status as mother of all Christians.
His brothers likely didn't believe in him. Remember, they thought he was nuts. So her other sons weren't there to care for her.
Why do you keep pulling these strange quotes out of nowhere and just assuming that I agree with your strange reading of it? You aren't explaining anything. Nothing in that quote suggests she has special status as mother of all Christians.
IF Mary had other children per Jewish custom/law it would have fallen on the next oldest (family) to care for her, so there would have been no need for Jesus to 'appoint' that role to someone outside the family (which also would have been viewed as an insult).
Yet Jesus didn't tell John to 'take care of her' that is NOWHERE in the scripture. YOU are reading that into it.
Instead He says "Gynai ide sou huios" (woman behold your son).
then "Ide sou mētēr" (behold your mother) to the disciple John.
Besides, scripture then shows 'then from that moment, he took her into "idia" (himself) (John 19:27)
That's right, himself!!!! "idia" - Strong's 2398
note that the word "oikos" - Strong's 3624 (oikos: a house, a dwelling) is NOT used in this scripture!
IF Mary had other children per Jewish custom/law it would have fallen on the next oldest (family) to care for her, so there would have been no need for Jesus to 'appoint' that role to someone outside the family (which also would have been viewed as an insult).
Not if said next oldest was at odds with her and Jesus. Remember how they came and tried to take him away? That they didn't believe he was the Messiah? That they chided him for not going to the Feast and making a public appearance? It appears that no, they didn't believe in Jesus.
Quote:
Yet Jesus didn't tell John to 'take care of her' that is NOWHERE in the scripture. YOU are reading that into it.
Instead He says "Gynai ide sou huios" (woman behold your son).
then "Ide sou mētēr" (behold your mother) to the disciple John.
Yes. He didn't say "woman, behold your children, the church".
Quote:
Besides, scripture then shows 'then from that moment, he took her into "idia" (himself) (John 19:27)
That's right, himself!!!! "idia" - Strong's 2398
note that the word "oikos" - Strong's 3624 (oikos: a house, a dwelling) is NOT used in this scripture!
Nothing there about her being a mystical mother to us all. That is reading into it.
Look, I know that you're likely copying/pasting this stuff from your favorite catholic apologist. I get it. You want to believe this...you trust in the men that you think represent the church, which you've been told is what you should do. But you really are coming across as someone that just doesn't get it. You're trying to argue but you aren't actually explaining the points you're trying to make.
The issue is when one thinks God has been telling them something that contradicts what God has already said, thus making him out to be a liar.
Interesting. Wouldn't that kind of thinking include what happened to Peter as well? After all, Peter had his dream, where he was told to "Slaughter and eat". And Peter protested by saying, "Nothing profane or unclean has entered my mouth." Peter didn't want to contradict what he believed to be true.
Yet the voice from Heaven told him, "What God has made clean, you are not to call profane."
The voice of God told Peter something that Peter found to be 'contradictory'. At least, at first.
Was Peter, therefore a "liar"?
Jesus and his Apostles picked at the heads of wheat on the Sabbath, thereby 'breaking' a Commandment (or statute or decree) that God had spoken.
No work was supposed to be done on the Sabbath, as per God. Yet, Jesus and his apostles did 'work'.
So, was Jesus a 'liar'?
Interesting that the Pharisees and the Sadducees BOTH believed that Jesus was contradicting what God had already said. It's one reason WHY Jesus was put to death.
Jesus went OUTSIDE of written scripture. So did Peter. And in Peter's dream, so did GOD.
...or DID He?
Last edited by Mink57; 04-01-2023 at 12:22 PM..
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