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So you can judge if one is born again or not? Or if one was born again that died 1000, 2000 years ago?
You may think you have to but I don't have to. I know they all are born again, but until Jesus joined them as Spirits they were separate from God. Since Jesus when we physically die, we either join with God and Jesus or have the dross refined out of us before we join.
4012 perí (a preposition) – properly, all-around (on every side); encompassing, used of full (comprehensive) consideration where "all the bases are covered" (inclusively). 4012 (perí) is often translated "concerning" ("all about").
the english translation looses the meaning.
It still doesnt translate into TO the saints. Even the Catholic apologists dont quote this verse.
"He is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38)
"this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” (John 6:50-51)
Yet, we never see the apostles praying to him or anyone else that had passed on.
Yet, we never see the apostles praying to him or anyone else that had passed on.
Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints“
When translated to English, it's basically the Hail Mary prayer.
The first half of the song, and the first half (actually more than half) of the Hail Mary prayer, which is a short prayer anyway, is directly from scripture.
From Luke 1:
Quote:
26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
correct -'for' and 'TO' in English are inconcise translations, leading to misunderstanding.
look again at post #49 - for the Greek 'peri' - is more properly translated/understood as 'through' 'or 'around'.
It is a reach to try and make the word mean some version of praying TO or THROUGH the saints . Most other verses that use the same word are much less prone to misinterpretation, ie, “they went looking FOR the boy”, “ he girded ABOUT his loins” , other times it is used as “ concerning” or “of” . But no other verse I have seen ever interprets it as TO . This interpretation isn’t even listed as being used anywhere in the Bible where Strongs list the number of each type of use .
KJV Translation Count — Total: 331x
The KJV translates Strong's G4012 in the following manner: of (148x), for (61x), concerning (40x), about (31x), as touching (8x), touching (3x), whereof (with G3739) (3x), not translated (4x), miscellaneous (33x).
The approved Catholic Bible , the NRSV-CE (Catholic Edition) , also translates the word as FOR . So even the approved Catholic versions aren’t attempting to make the verse mean TO the saints .
In addition, there were no saints to venerate and pray to at the time of Paul’s letter . Even the Apostles were still alive at this time . This was a later development of the church .
I am not arguing against praying to saints. I am just pointing out this verse doesn’t support the practice . It is more a part of the Traditions than a biblical imperative.
Last edited by NatesDude; 11-13-2021 at 09:23 AM..
It is a reach to try and make the word mean some version of praying TO or THROUGH the saints . Most other verses that use the same word are much less prone to misinterpretation, ie, “they went looking FOR the boy”, “ he girded ABOUT his loins” , other times it is used as “ concerning” or “of” . But no other verse I have seen ever interprets it as TO . This interpretation isn’t even listed as being used anywhere in the Bible where Strongs list the number of each type of use .
KJV Translation Count — Total: 331x
The KJV translates Strong's G4012 in the following manner: of (148x), for (61x), concerning (40x), about (31x), as touching (8x), touching (3x), whereof (with G3739) (3x), not translated (4x), miscellaneous (33x).
The approved Catholic Bible , the NRSV-CE (Catholic Edition) , also translates the word as FOR . So even the approved Catholic versions aren’t attempting to make the verse mean TO the saints .
Yes, we could argue semantics over a single word forever: however, in context, WHY would you/anyone ever need to pray FOR a 'Saint' (hagiōn-sacred ) - in Catholic context this person is already in the presence of God (as we read in Revelation)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatesDude
In addition, there were no saints to venerate and pray to at the time of Paul’s letter . Even the Apostles were still alive at this time . This was a later development of the church .
I have no idea how you can conclude that ^:
- scripture show us from - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ......... Stephen, Dismus..... let alone Moses and Elijah who even appeared to them.
"...He is not the God of the dead but of the living". Mat 22:32
Jesus even tells a parable/teaching of a rich man petitioning Father Abraham:
- note that NONE of the people or disciples correct Jesus saying, 'Hey J, that parable doesn't make sense cause "you can't pray to Abraham cause he's 'dead'"
(thought I'm sure if BF was there then he would have - ha!)
and neither does Abraham correct the rich man saying 'hey, you can't pray to me, pray to God only".
Heck, even the rich man, the one doing the praying/petitioning - had already 'passed'!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatesDude
I am not arguing against praying to saints. I am just pointing out this verse doesn’t support the practice . It is more a part of the Traditions than a biblical imperative.
That verse alone, of course not - and the tradition goes all that way back into OT - it didn't need to be newly established in the NT.
Yes, we could argue semantics over a single word forever: however, in context, WHY would you/anyone ever need to pray FOR a 'Saint' (hagiōn-sacred ) - in Catholic context this person is already in the presence of God (as we read in Revelation)!
I have no idea how you can conclude that ^:
- scripture show us from - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ......... Stephen, Dismus..... let alone Moses and Elijah who even appeared to them.
"...He is not the God of the dead but of the living". Mat 22:32
Jesus even tells a parable/teaching of a rich man petitioning Father Abraham:
- note that NONE of the people or disciples correct Jesus saying, 'Hey J, that parable doesn't make sense cause "you can't pray to Abraham cause he's 'dead'"
(thought I'm sure if BF was there then he would have - ha!)
and neither does Abraham correct the rich man saying 'hey, you can't pray to me, pray to God only".
Heck, even the rich man, the one doing the praying/petitioning - had already 'passed'!
That verse alone, of course not - and the tradition goes all that way back into OT - it didn't need to be newly established in the NT.
The Bible doesn’t instruct to pray for A saint, it instructs you to pray for THE saints, in other words, for Christians.
Act 9:13 - Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem
Act 9:32 - And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and such are not Saints of the Catholic Church .
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