Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Frankly, and no offense, but the criticisms of the LDS I've seen in this thread are weak sauce.
Okay you asked for it, here are a couple of stronger ones, hold onto your hat..-
"Cain, Ham and the whole Negro race have been cursed with black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a "caste apart". A people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry." (Mormon Doctrine, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, pg. 114)
"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27)
(Mormon Doctrine, pg. 527, Bruce R. McConkie )
It's amazing the hatred you have for this man, and you can't even remember his name.
Did you look at the page I linked to on CARM? He didn't use quotes. He didn't suggest that he was actually quoting it. He paraphrased it.
Okay, let's just back up a bit here. Here's the quote that started the whole thing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencer48
They believe men can become gods of their own planet.
You weighed in by saying...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I've read first-hand writings of your church's leaders that corroborate those things.
I responded...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I challenge you to post one authoritative statement from any LDS leader that makes even the vaguest reference to anybody getting their own planet when they die.
You failed to address my challenge. Instead you said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
"After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354)."
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,†(DC 132:20)."
Of course, you'll reject the source I copied this from and ignore the fact that Joseph Smith said it, and that it's in Doctrines and Covenants. You want to believe it? OK. This isn't an attack on you. It's a simple fact that your church has in the past taught it. I honestly am perplexed on why one would just not admit what is taught.
A few posts later, you continued by posting two direct quotes from LDS scripture...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Katzpur: I bear no ill will toward you. If this is out of context, let's talk. Just own it. It's not bashing to discuss honestly what your church's founder said.
I found this: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent15 today, and the great God who holds this
world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds16 and all things by his power, was to make himself
visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form17—like yourselves
in all the person, image, and very form as a man;18 for Adam was created in the very fashion, image
and likeness of God,19 and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him,20
as one man talks and communes with another.21"
Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God;9 and you have got to learn how
to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God,10 the same as all Gods have done before
you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one;2
from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead,
and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned
in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me
And guess what? I responded by saying (with respect to the last two quotes you posted)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Both of these statements are accurate quotes.
So just what is it we're arguing about? Just like numerous other highly-regarded (even if not by you) other Christians from Irenaeus to Clement to Justin Martyr to Athanasius to Augustine to C.S. Lewis, Mormons believe that we have been given the divine potential to become like our Father in Heaven, through His grace and with His blessing.
Quote:
Again...if your church has historically taught it, just own it. Admit it. Let's move on. Not sure why you're so hesitant to say it.
I'm NOT hesitant to say anything that's true. What is not true and what I won't "admit" to is that Mormons believe that "men will be getting their own planet when they did." That's a disrespectful caricature that you and others have bought into, and it is NOT what we teach or believe.
Okay you asked for it, here are a couple of stronger ones, hold onto your hat..-
Mike didn't ask for anything, actually, and he's not even LDS, so he obviously has no dog in this fight. Any any rate, since you apparently see it as your Christian duty to sling mud, here are my comments.
Quote:
"Cain, Ham and the whole Negro race have been cursed with black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a "caste apart". A people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry." (Mormon Doctrine, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, pg. 114)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the book called "Mormon Doctrine" was Bruce R. McConkie's own understanding of Mormon doctrine. Despite its title, it is not a handbook on Mormon doctrine, nor is it a recognized or reliable interpretation of what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches or what its members believe. For your information, the following is an official statement from the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pertaining to quotes such as McConkie's:
"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four 'standard works' of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted." ~ Source: Approaching Mormon Doctrine ~
Quote:
"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27)
(Mormon Doctrine, pg. 527, Bruce R. McConkie )[/i]
You really concern yourself much with detail, do you? There is nothing in Abraham 1:20-27 that says anything about Negros in this life being denied the priesthood. This was just McConkie's prejudices speaking.
You know, if you want to get on some kind of band wagon and tell me that my Church has a history of racial discrimination, knock yourself out. You won't get any argument from me.
You really don't pay much attention to detail, do you? There is nothing in Abraham 1:20-27 that says anything about Negros in this life being denied the priesthood. This was just McConkie's prejudices speaking.
McConkie was a mormon wasn't he?
But anyway, what about polygamy in the LDS, i hear some mormons have more than one wife even today?
You know, if you want to get on some kind of bandwagon and tell me that my Church has a history of racial discrimination, knock yourself out. You won't get any argument from me.
Racial discrimination is an evil that was widespread and rampant, certainly not limited to any specific religion or other institution. Unfortunately, we have not completely eliminated it either.
But anyway, what about polygamy in the LDS, i hear some mormons have more than one wife even today?
If you are referring to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the church headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah), then the answer is an unqualified "NO!" Any member of the Church who is found to be involved in a polygamous relationship is immediately excommunicated. No questions asked. No extenuating circumstances.
If you are referring to offshoots of the Church (such as Warren Jeff's group), then the answer is "yes." But it would be just as misleading to characterize our two denominations as being just marginally different in doctrines and policies as it would to make a similar comparison between the American Baptist Church and the Westboro Baptists. You wouldn't do that, would you?
Racial discrimination is an evil that was widespread and rampant, certainly not limited to any specific religion or other institution. Unfortunately, we have not completely eliminated it either.
Agreed. Since I'm old enough to remember like it was yesterday the day the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood was lifted. It was in June of 1978, and I was working at an ad agency in downtown Salt Lake City, just a few blocks from the LDS Church headquarters. One morning shortly before noon, a rumor began to spread like wildfire through the office: The LDS Church leadership had just made an announcement that from that time forward, Black men could hold the priesthood. When I first heard it, I thought it was some kind of joke. There had been absolutely no hint that such a policy change might be coming. I didn't believe the first person who told me, but within a matter of just a few minutes, the entire office was abuzz with the news. It wasn't hard to confirm that what we were hearing was more than just a rumor. People who had private offices turned their radios on, and it was all over the news. It had really happened!
It was close to the time when I usually took my lunch, so I decided to leave early. I went alone, as usual. As I walked across the street to the large downtown mall, I suddenly became aware that I was grinning from ear to ear. The instant this happened, I became very self-conscious. Nobody walks around with a smile like that on their face. I tried to stop, but it was difficult. I was unbelievably happy! People must be noticing me, I thought, feeling very, very conspicuous. Did I really stick out like a sore thumb? I glanced around to see if anyone was looking at me. No one appeared to be, which was a relief. Immediately, though, I realized that I wasn't the only one smiling. Everywhere I looked, people were smiling, and obviously very, very happy.
It was a happy day, and one I will always remember.
...The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the church headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah), then the answer is an unqualified "NO!" Any member of the Church who is found to be involved in a polygamous relationship is immediately excommunicated. No questions asked. No extenuating circumstances.
If you are referring to offshoots of the Church (such as Warren Jeff's group), then the answer is "yes." But it would be just as misleading to characterize our two denominations as being just marginally different in doctrines and policies as it would to make a similar comparison between the American Baptist Church and the Westboro Baptists. You wouldn't do that, would you?
Thanks, if any church deviates from Jesus's teachings they should go sit on the naughty step, and that includes the polygamous offshoots of the LDS and the extremist beliefs of the Westboros..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
-
