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For many of us including myself, it's not the faith we grew up with. The Catholic Church is full of converts - much more so than many outsiders realize. The simple fact of the matter is that Catholicism is true. Where else would we go?
John 6:68: "Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life'"
Plan b = come to church.
Plan A = Come unto Me.
"Be much alone with God, and take time to get thoroughly acquainted. Converse over everything with Him. Unburden yourself wholly -every thought, feeling, wish, plan, doubt- to Him. He wants not merely to be on good terms with you, but to be intimate." -Horatius Bonar
The two witness rule is about church discipline (ecclesiastical issues). Most churches (organizations) have an internal process to deal with clergy and employees involved in child abuse. In contrast to JWs, most don't have a process to deal with individual members who commit gross sins like child abuse.
“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established."-Matthew 18, 15,16
If an organization claims to be Christian and the Bible is considered the book of faith by many practicing Christians it stands to reason the actions a church (organization) takes should be found therein.
I'm sure Jesus knew it's not a perfect system because unlike Jesus men can't discern the thoughts of others. Lets be clear though. The two witness rule is only about how the church disciplines its members. It doesn't prevent anyone from going to the authorities and filing an accusation.
Child abuse is not a matter for any church to deal with. If you know of a case and don't report it to the authorities, you should be charged as an accessory after the fact. You could be charged with conspiracy to conceal a crime. Abetting criminal behavior is about as un-Christian as a person can get.
Child abuse is not a matter for any church to deal with. If you know of a case and don't report it to the authorities, you should be charged as an accessory after the fact. You could be charged with conspiracy to conceal a crime. Abetting criminal behavior is about as un-Christian as a person can get.
Agreed 100%, especially when the victims are children. Why this is so difficult for some, I'll never understand.
The two witness rule is about church discipline (ecclesiastical issues). Most churches (organizations) have an internal process to deal with clergy and employees involved in child abuse. In contrast to JWs, most don't have a process to deal with individual members who commit gross sins like child abuse.
“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established."-Matthew 18, 15,16
If an organization claims to be Christian and the Bible is considered the book of faith by many practicing Christians it stands to reason the actions a church (organization) takes should be found therein.
I'm sure Jesus knew it's not a perfect system because unlike Jesus men can't discern the thoughts of others. Lets be clear though. The two witness rule is only about how the church disciplines its members. It doesn't prevent anyone from going to the authorities and filing an accusation.
Given that few if any JWs are filing accusations and shunning the few that do, if they’re trying to protect children I’d say they’re doing it wrong.
I don't know. I just don't. I respect individual Catholics in their faith, and fully understand their desire to remain loyal to the faith in which they grew up. But at some point, you have to ask, 'What is the breaking point?' At what point does the flock demand reform? Sure, a few grassroots organizations have emerged, but they seem to be outliers rather than represent that broad spectrum of Catholics.
I think part of the problem is that Catholic faithful want to treat these incidents as anomalies. But as the number of outrages spirals upward over the past 25 years into literally the millions, then it stops being an anomaly and becomes business as usual. Because the scandal isn't about the misbehavior of the individual priests, but rather about an institution that knew of such conduct and covered it up year after year after year.
It is a travesty of human perversity, but it is hardly contained to the Catholic institutions. I believe these kinds of things are what Meerkat keeps alluding to about the Principalities and wickedness in high places that we must contend with. Wealth and power corrupt and the kind of power religions had corrupted absolutely but they are not alone! Our societies are rife with corruption in corporate boardrooms, the media, and politics as well.
For many of us including myself, it's not the faith we grew up with. The Catholic Church is full of converts - much more so than many outsiders realize. The simple fact of the matter is that Catholicism is true. Where else would we go?
John 6:68: "Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life'"
Well, as far as the 'true' conceit is concerned, that's seriously debatable. The very fact that we're having to discuss Catholic priests sexually molesting potentially millions of children--while the leadership of the Catholic Church did not lift a finger to stop matters until word leaked out into the press--make it anything but a true reflection of Christ's mission on Earth. Or, to put it more crudely, it's hard to respect the moral grounding of any organization that ignores its priests buggering nine year olds.
I don't care how many pious statements are released. Lamenting what has happened and acting on it are two utterly different things. The fact that the Catholic Church has obfuscated and delayed speaks far more eloquently than any encyclical. I mean, just three years ago, the Vatican halted the American Conference of Catholic Bishops from discussing meaningful reform just minutes prior to that body preparing to debate the issue. That tells me that the Catholic Church really isn't all that serious about it. This is nothing more than a wholesale institutional failure to prevent evil. Or to put it more accurately, an institutional sin of omission to perpetuate evil.
On to my other point. If you personally are not standing up in your pew, if you're not confronting your priest, your bishop, and whoever else demanding immediate action on this question, rather than just grumbling about it on a message board, then you really aren't about meaningful change. You can type, 'Hang 'em high' all you want on a message board, but if you don't take your outrage to the bishop then, well, silence is consent.
The very fact that these revelations, such as the one today in France, are only bubbling to the surface today via government inquiry, speak to the profound rot in church hierarchy, its unwillingness to confront this issue head on. Not the priests. The entire structure.
Last edited by MinivanDriver; 10-05-2021 at 02:49 PM..
It is a travesty of human perversity, but it is hardly contained to the Catholic institutions. I believe these kinds of things are what Meerkat keeps alluding to about the Principalities and wickedness in high places that we must contend with. Wealth and power corrupt and the kind of power religions had corrupted absolutely but they are not alone! Our societies are rife with corruption in corporate boardrooms, the media, and politics as well.
Yup, it is the bureaucracy that develops where the good of the organisation becomes paramount and it becomes a systemic, cultural issue where the “systems” doesn’t seem to recognise the rights of the human individuals that are under their control and those individuals get used as pawns, it is not isolated to any one “system” our political, religious, legal, societal systems are extremely corrupt, and they always want to hide their own transgression because they think it will reflect badly on their organisation if it gets revealed, but we now have the situation where a lot of the bad stuff is getting revealed and being brought to our awareness
Sorry guys ...I know what it means. I just wasn't seeing much of it displayed on this thread, especially by those who lay claim to the term. Pedophilia has been diagnosed as a mental disorder. Perhaps general recognition and a 'treatment program' should be encouraged rather than 'payback'. Society at large would benefit from this.
I fail to see the connection Rom, pedophilia is not love by any means sir
Did you even listen to the video, especially when your mentors were talking?
Do as you are told without questioning.
No education necessary, follow the program.
People fit for destruction, they are garbage.
No acts of compassion, even for a dying child.
Solicitation of funds through deception.
Exploiting children to further the kingdom.
Two witness rule and the shunning of family members.
Your mentors talk like illiterate children, having no education. Cognitive behavioral therapy- for the brainwashed.
Do as you are told without questioning.
1 Jn 5:3
No education necessary, follow the program.
Isa 2:2,3
People fit for destruction, they are garbage.
Ps 37:9
No acts of compassion, even for a dying child.
John 13:34,35
Solicitation of funds through deception.
What part of no collections taken don't you get sir
Exploiting children to further the kingdom.
Deut 6:6,7
Two witness rule and the shunning of family members.
Deut 19:15; 2 Jn 9-11
Anything else sir?
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It is a travesty of human perversity, but it is hardly contained to the Catholic institutions. I believe these kinds of things are what Meerkat keeps alluding to about the Principalities and wickedness in high places that we must contend with. Wealth and power corrupt and the kind of power religions had corrupted absolutely but they are not alone! Our societies are rife with corruption in corporate boardrooms, the media, and politics as well.
