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How are people supposed to believe who don't believe, though?
You can't just DECIDE to believe something.
Also, under what authority do YOU get to decide for whom "it won't end well"? Since you have obviously chosen to disregard Jesus's command to love God and your neighbor, what makes you think it will end well for you?
You can't decide to believe, but you can decide to stop actively resisting. This was the point of Pascal's much-misunderstood wager. What he was really suggesting was "Try living as though Christianity were true and see if it's truth doesn't blossom within you."
I believe, with many Christian philosophers and theologians, that all humans possess a sensus divinitatis. I believe all humans possess an intuitive awareness of God. I believe God calls all persons in many ways, some subtle and some more explicit.
All of this can be resisted. Humans can use their free will to choose to disbelieve. God calls, but he doesn't coerce.
This is really what I see. Those who claim they are "waiting to be convinced" are really choosing to actively resist God's clues and calls. Those who open themselves to God will find, as Pascal suggested, that faith blossoms within them.
How are people supposed to believe who don't believe, though?
You can't just DECIDE to believe something.
Faith is a gift from God and not something we can conjure up on our own.
However, in a sense we can decide what we believe. I can use myself as an example. When I became a Catholic, I had to submit to believe all that the Church teaches. In spite of how outlandish I thought some of the Catholic doctrines were at the time, I had to believe them because I had placed myself under Her teaching authority, which I had come to see as legitimate. Over time, I have come to appreciate and better understand the wisdom of the Church, and what once seemed so outlandish now makes perfect sense.
Faith is a gift from God and not something we can conjure up on our own.
However, in a sense we can decide what we believe. I can use myself as an example. When I became a Catholic, I had to submit to believe all that the Church teaches. In spite of how outlandish I thought some of the Catholic doctrines were at the time, I had to believe them because I had placed myself under Her teaching authority, which I had come to see as legitimate. Over time, I have come to appreciate and better understand the wisdom of the Church, and what once seemed so outlandish now makes perfect sense.
No, faith, at least as it relates to salvation, is not a gift from God. If it were, and since faith in Christ Jesus is necessary for salvation, and since God desires that all men be saved and that no one perish, then God would be remiss for not granting faith to everyone.
There was a spiritual gift of faith spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:9 but it was a spiritual gift that was given to some believers to give them confidence to take a stand for God. It was not given to all believers. And again, it had nothing to do with the issue of salvation.
The unbeliever when hearing the Gospel message about Christ will either respond in faith or he won't. God doesn't give those who do believe the faith to do so. Faith comes from hearing the Gospel message and accepting it as true. Faith is a human response to the Gospel.
How the hell can you misinterpret the nature of God revealed by Jesus Christ on the Cross under the most horrendous conditions a human body could endure????? What about His reaction was ambiguous??? How the hell could it EVER have been interpreted as the reaction of a God whose wrath and vengeance over a single act of disobedience caused Him to curse our entire species???? How is that remotely credible to you????
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Describe that for me, please.
It is described in your Bible. As God Himself, Jesus said to forgive even His torturers and murderers because they knew not what they did. Because we were ignorant, He forgave even our most brutal and savage acts against Him. Where is this wrathful, vengeful God so enraged by our progenitors' single act of disobedience He cursed them and their descendants??? Where is this God whose wrath is so intense, He needed a savage and brutal blood sacrifice before He could forgive us for "whatever?"
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Scripture actually says that God poured out his wrath on Jesus instead of us. Your version of a milk toast god that is scared to offend doesn't exist.
Referring to our loving Lord and Savior as "milk toast" reveals the utter savagery and brutality that underlies your supposed love for God. You revere a wrathful, vengeful God to appease your human ego and weaknesses.
You won't understand this but the ancient Hebrews believed that the earth was flat, was supported on pillars, and that the firmament was a solid dome over the flat earth. That was the general belief in the ancient Near East. This is reflected in the Bible. God didn't bother to correct their cosmology and it wasn't necessary to do so. He communicated to the ancient Hebrews what was important for them to know without having to give them a correct understanding of the cosmos.
Understand? Yes. Agree? No Like I stated the Bible is God's word, it is true that He allowed each penmen to record His words in their style, but not to the degree of inaccuracy.
No, faith, at least as it relates to salvation, is not a gift from God. If it were, and since faith in Christ Jesus is necessary for salvation, and since God desires that all men be saved and that no one perish, then God would be remiss for not granting faith to everyone.
There was a spiritual gift of faith spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:9 but it was a spiritual gift that was given to some believers to give them confidence to take a stand for God. It was not given to all believers. And again, it had nothing to do with the issue of salvation.
The unbeliever when hearing the Gospel message about Christ will either respond in faith or he won't. God doesn't give those who do believe the faith to do so. Faith comes from hearing the Gospel message and accepting it as true. Faith is a human response to the Gospel.
We've been over this Mike. Ephesians 2:8-9 explicitly states that it is. And it's not the only place.
The unbeliever is blinded by his sin and cannot see the goodness of God.
It is described in your Bible. As God Himself, Jesus said to forgive even His torturers and murderers because they knew not what they did. Because we were ignorant, He forgave even our most brutal and savage acts against Him. Where is this wrathful, vengeful God so enraged by our progenitors' single act of disobedience He cursed them and their descendants??? Where is this God whose wrath is so intense, He needed a savage and brutal blood sacrifice before He could forgive us for "whatever?"
The same Bible also says that Jesus was bruised for our transgressions, and took the punishment of our sin.
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Referring to our loving Lord and Savior as "milk toast" reveals the utter savagery and brutality that underlies your supposed love for God. You revere a wrathful, vengeful God to appease your human ego and weaknesses.
My God isn't milktoast. My God is holy, just, and good. He's described in the Bible, including those parts you don't like, so you ignore. You mock that which you don't know. Why do you continue to play these silly infantile games?
It's interesting you refer to him as savage. He's good and has promised to save anyone that comes to him.
Excellent questions......you have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit to find the Lord. You can see it in Acts 16 where the Spirit opened Lydias understanding to hear Paul, and she believed. I know it won't end well for those in unbelief because that is the root cause for all sin. Jesus wants all to come to know Him (as do I). I have posted many times if you desire to be saved openly pray for Jesus to make Himself real and He will honor that, because He and the Spirit are everywhere and they already know you. The best decision anyone will ever make.
And many people on this forum have posted over the years that they did exactly that, and there was no response.
Faith is a gift from God and not something we can conjure up on our own.
However, in a sense we can decide what we believe. I can use myself as an example. When I became a Catholic, I had to submit to believe all that the Church teaches. In spite of how outlandish I thought some of the Catholic doctrines were at the time, I had to believe them because I had placed myself under Her teaching authority, which I had come to see as legitimate. Over time, I have come to appreciate and better understand the wisdom of the Church, and what once seemed so outlandish now makes perfect sense.
Thanks, Mike. I can appreciate this answer. I've considered Catholicism. Landed in the Episcopal Church, sometimes cornily called "Catholic Lite" (lots of former Catholics there, both in the clergy and laity) because of the beauty of the similar tradition, ritual, and history, which have always been a draw for me.
I won't bore you with details of what I've posted numerous times before, but one of the reasons, besides social, that I returned to a church after having given up on Christianity more than a decade before was because I saw that other people seemed to experience this rejecting, judgmental, unkind Jesus character in a different way than I had. While I really did NOT want to believe because Christianity had been so harmful and damaging to me, I wanted to know why other people seemed to get something beneficial from it. I'm still not 100% sure, to tell the truth, but I no longer see Jesus as a negative character. I still can't necessarily think of Jesus as being particularly "loving" to me personally, but through practicing as a Christian, I've come to see him as a teacher and healer, at least, and as someone pointing toward what I internally call "the Real God".
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