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It is described in your Bible. As God Himself, Jesus said to forgive even His torturers and murderers because they knew not what they did. Because we were ignorant, He forgave even our most brutal and savage acts against Him. Where is this wrathful, vengeful God so enraged by our progenitors' single act of disobedience He cursed them and their descendants??? Where is this God whose wrath is so intense, He needed a savage and brutal blood sacrifice before He could forgive us for "whatever?" Referring to our loving Lord and Savior as "milk toast" reveals the utter savagery and brutality that underlies your supposed love for God. You revere a wrathful, vengeful God to appease your human ego and weaknesses.
Since the existence of God is self-evident, you tell me
Look around...
If the existence of God were self-evident, we'd all know it, and science would confirm this fact for us.
Or why not if the existence of God was truly self-evident?
The existence of our computers is self-evident. The existence of our oceans is self-evident. That's the sort of "self-evidence" no one will disagree about. Apparently you have come to believe that something self-evident is actually nothing of the sort. So you call it "self-evident" even though clearly it's not.
Interesting how freely people can do this too, and think it works for others who need a little more than simple hearsay...
If the existence of God were self-evident, we'd all know it,
We do all know it on some level. Self-deception/self-delusion is an unfortunate tendency in humanity. To paraphrase the words of a great king: sin makes you stupid.
It's a fool that says "there is no God".
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
and science would confirm this fact for us.
No it wouldn't. The scientific method is set up to study the natural world. If God is not part of the natural world (and He, by definition, must not be), then He would be beyond the purview or competency of science.
We do all know it on some level. Self-deception/self-delusion is an unfortunate tendency in humanity. To paraphrase the words of a great king: sin makes you stupid.
It's a fool that says "there is no God".
No it wouldn't. The scientific method is set up to study the natural world. If God is not part of the natural world (and He, by definition, must not be), then He would be beyond the purview or competency of science.
Some will go with what you claim a fool will say, but I agree self-deception/self-delusion is an unfortunate tendency in humanity. Having read a fair amount of history, boy howdy! Here too, however, it generally becomes clear who was victim of self-deception and/or self-delusion and who was not. You go with your "great king." I'll go with wherever the truth takes us...
Also not true about science! That's your perspective born of the obvious bias that somehow has you believing that science would not be able to detect a god if one existed. Where does that notion come from I wonder?
Science is the study of what exists. Wherever the truth of these matters may lead. No one can study what doesn't exist. Shouldn't for very long anyway...
Is what you describe as deciding to "stop actively resisting" any different from actively resisting the critical thinking that establishes the truth of these matters? Our universal truth, same for all of us?
Who is "actively resisting" the pursuit of the truth really?
I don't believe critical thinking is the route to faith. Critical thinking is an impediment to faith, part of what I've called resisting. Faith transcends critical thinking. We can think critically about religious matters, either as unbelievers or believers, but the decision to stop resisting God's call and open oneself to God is a surrender, an abandonment, of critical thinking. Virtually all the great sages from all religious traditions have emphasized that the divine is approached through intuition and surrender, not dualistic (this vs. that) critical thinking. Critical thinking does not "establish" the truths of God.
Those who are locked into the mindset you epitomize will simply never encounter God. They will always demand more evidence, not realizing they are essentially making a category mistake. If God could be proved by scientific evidence and critical thinking, he wouldn't be the transcendent God. I don't mean any personal criticism, but the mindset you epitomize is a prideful one that seeks a very small, very anthropomorphic god. I believe this is why the Bible repeatedly warns about the folly of human wisdom insofar as the truths of God are concerned.
Of course you're going to say "That's ridiculous. I can't simply turn off my mind and try to convince myself to believe things that seem silly to me." I don't have any formula or trick for how one such as yourself yields to faith. In the born-again experience I've described, God called me at a moment when I was bored and disinterested - but, precisely because I was bored and disinterested, I also wasn't resisting. A small window was open, and the Holy Spirit used it. Or perhaps Pascal's suggestion was a very wise one: Try living as though Christianity were true and see if its truth doesn't blossom within you.
I only know that the path you're on is one that, by definition, will never lead to God. It's really quite uncanny how many times and in how many ways the Bible emphasizes this.
I don't believe critical thinking is the route to faith. Critical thinking is an impediment to faith, part of what I've called resisting. Faith transcends critical thinking. We can think critically about religious matters, either as unbelievers or believers, but the decision to stop resisting God's call and open oneself to God is a surrender, an abandonment, of critical thinking. Virtually all the great sages from all religious traditions have emphasized that the divine is approached through intuition and surrender, not dualistic (this vs. that) critical thinking. Critical thinking does not "establish" the truths of God.
Those who are locked into the mindset you epitomize will simply never encounter God. They will always demand more evidence, not realizing they are essentially making a category mistake. If God could be proved by scientific evidence and critical thinking, he wouldn't be the transcendent God. I don't mean any personal criticism, but the mindset you epitomize is a prideful one that seeks a very small, very anthropomorphic god. I believe this is why the Bible repeatedly warns about the folly of human wisdom insofar as the truths of God are concerned.
Of course you're going to say "That's ridiculous. I can't simply turn off my mind and try to convince myself to believe things that seem silly to me." I don't have any formula or trick for how one such as yourself yields to faith. In the born-again experience I've described, God called me at a moment when I was bored and disinterested - but, precisely because I was bored and disinterested, I also wasn't resisting. A small window was open, and the Holy Spirit used it. Or perhaps Pascal's suggestion was a very wise one: Try living as though Christianity were true and see if its truth doesn't blossom within you.
I only know that the path you're on is one that, by definition, will never lead to God. It's really quite uncanny how many times and in how many ways the Bible emphasizes this.
Unfortunately, I've got to move on from here now, but I agree with you...
Critical thinking does not seem to be the route to faith. Might even say an impediment. Yes.
Critical thinking establishes the truth, about whatever the issue may be. It leads to wherever the truth may lead. Those who think crossing that line into the realm of "intuition and surrender" somehow brings them closer to a truth are either correct to believe what they do. Or they are not. For all of us to judge as we will, but again for me anyway, I am content to believe in what we all tend to believe. I leave all you who continue to disagree in all your "born again" ways about the rest that can't be substantiated.
Not by science. Not by anyone. Or anything...
The truth is about separating fact from fiction. Regardless the focus, and although I can appreciate all the lofty descriptions of believing in what no one can confirm in any reasonable, practical manner, I simply can't believe in something only substantiated by beliefs such as yours. Contrary to what others believe. Critical thinking also has us looking both ways before crossing the street. Avoiding poisonous foods. Figuring out what best to do with our time.
Nothing we all have good reason to believe is anything people generally have this sort of debate about is all...
I don't believe critical thinking is the route to faith. Critical thinking is an impediment to faith, part of what I've called resisting. Faith transcends critical thinking. We can think critically about religious matters, either as unbelievers or believers, but the decision to stop resisting God's call and open oneself to God is a surrender, an abandonment, of critical thinking. Virtually all the great sages from all religious traditions have emphasized that the divine is approached through intuition and surrender, not dualistic (this vs. that) critical thinking. Critical thinking does not "establish" the truths of God.
Those who are locked into the mindset you epitomize will simply never encounter God. They will always demand more evidence, not realizing they are essentially making a category mistake. If God could be proved by scientific evidence and critical thinking, he wouldn't be the transcendent God. I don't mean any personal criticism, but the mindset you epitomize is a prideful one that seeks a very small, very anthropomorphic god. I believe this is why the Bible repeatedly warns about the folly of human wisdom insofar as the truths of God are concerned.
Of course you're going to say "That's ridiculous. I can't simply turn off my mind and try to convince myself to believe things that seem silly to me." I don't have any formula or trick for how one such as yourself yields to faith. In the born-again experience I've described, God called me at a moment when I was bored and disinterested - but, precisely because I was bored and disinterested, I also wasn't resisting. A small window was open, and the Holy Spirit used it. Or perhaps Pascal's suggestion was a very wise one: Try living as though Christianity were true and see if its truth doesn't blossom within you.
I only know that the path you're on is one that, by definition, will never lead to God. It's really quite uncanny how many times and in how many ways the Bible emphasizes this.
Critical thinking will enable us to discern the reasonableness of beliefs ABOUT God but cannot assist in establishing the core belief IN God. That is where your train left the tracks, Irkle. You conflate belief IN God with the acceptance of specific beliefs ABOUT God. They are very different kinds of beliefs.
Scripture actually says that God poured out his wrath on Jesus instead of us.
According to the beliefs of ignorant religious men, which has nothing to do with a holy, just and righteous God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The unbeliever is blinded by his sin and cannot see the goodness of God.
Inflicting an innocent person with pain, suffering and death to cover the sins of the guilty with your blood sacrifice - because of a wrathful deity mentality, does not equate to a holy, just, or righteous God. And there is nothing good or loving about it! You are merely blinded by your own religious ignorance and stupidity.
According to the beliefs of ignorant religious men, which has nothing to do with a holy, just and righteous God.
Inflicting an innocent person with pain, suffering and death to cover the sins of the guilty with your blood sacrifice - because of a wrathful deity mentality, does not equate to a holy, just, or righteous God. And there is nothing good or loving about it! You are merely blinded by your own religious ignorance and stupidity.
Unfortunately, I've got to move on from here now, but I agree with you...
Critical thinking does not seem to be the route to faith. Might even say an impediment. Yes.
Critical thinking establishes the truth, about whatever the issue may be. It leads to wherever the truth may lead. Those who think crossing that line into the realm of "intuition and surrender" somehow brings them closer to a truth are either correct to believe what they do. Or they are not. For all of us to judge as we will, but again for me anyway, I am content to believe in what we all tend to believe. I leave all you who continue to disagree in all your "born again" ways about the rest that can't be substantiated.
Not by science. Not by anyone. Or anything...
The truth is about separating fact from fiction. Regardless the focus, and although I can appreciate all the lofty descriptions of believing in what no one can confirm in any reasonable, practical manner, I simply can't believe in something only substantiated by beliefs such as yours. Contrary to what others believe. Critical thinking also has us looking both ways before crossing the street. Avoiding poisonous foods. Figuring out what best to do with our time.
Nothing we all have good reason to believe is anything people generally have this sort of debate about is all...
On this forum there is not to be debate about the existence of God/Jesus
R&S is the place to debate that
So yes you are best to move on over there
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