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But we DO have the "mind of Christ" as unambiguously revealed by Jesus on the Cross so we can infer a great many things as well as rule out a great many things. Why do you refuse to use the "mind of Christ" to test the truth of what is claimed to be from God or Jesus?
1st Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
I do use the mind of Christ.
Who is the "we" that Paul was including along with himself in his letter to the Corinthians that you quoted?
He doesn't give it to everyone because he's Sovereign and can choose to do what he wants with his creation. He chooses to elect some to salvation, and grants them faith.
While he condemns the rest of humanity? Utter Nonsense.
Faith is faith is faith regardless of the object of faith. Faith in God is no different than faith in some person or some thing. A person can have faith in some person because he knows something about that person. A person can have faith that the chair he is about to sit on will not collapse because he knows the chair is sturdy.
No, this is wrong. I used to make the same argument, but it's wrong. Faith in God is ontologically different from "faith" a chair won't break or faith my wife loves me. This argument trivializes faith in God and exaggerates the human role. Faith in God is a mysterious process that isn't simply a matter of the human response. Even to the extent it is a matter of human response, this occurs at a deeper level than a rationalistic decision like "I will trust this chair not to collapse."
Because Irkle always says such wise and wonderful things, I will quote this recent post that even the atheists agreed with (so you know it must be true!). This post wasn't talking specifically about faith at the moment of conversion, but here as well I believe we're talking about "a special kind of knowledge" involving a mysterious interaction of God and the human, not simply a calculated human response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irkle Berserkle
"Faith" in the religious sense is tricky.
In an everyday sense, we exercise faith all the time. I exercise faith every time I step on a ladder without "complete evidence" it will hold me. In most situations in which we exercise faith, it's an informed faith based on past experience and present observation. We don't even think of it as exercising faith.
On metaphysical issues like the existence or nonexistence of God, there isn't just a lack of complete evidence. By the very nature of these issues, there can never be anything like complete evidence. The more specific our answers get - for example, Christianity rather than Buddhism - the greater the evidence gap and the more reliance on faith.
My definition of faith used to be "living as though what I believe is true while acknowledging it might not be."
However, in the religious literature the term faith is often used in a sense that goes beyond mere trust. It is more typically used in a sense of "knowledge" unique to religious belief. I've come to accept that my former definition is inadequate. Stepping on a questionable ladder or holding an atheistic position really isn't faith. Faith is something unique to religious belief and is more accurately thought of as a special kind of knowledge.
Philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein recognized this distinction. He recognized that religious believers are thinking entirely differently from nonbelievers and on an entirely different plane. He said that if asked if he believed in a Last Judgment, he would find it "utterly crazy" to answer "No" because a nonbeliever can't simply assert the opposite of a religious claim; the nonbeliever simply has no frame of reference for the religious claim.
'Faith' we speaking about is very specific.
In Greek it means:
"4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way)." https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
in 1 Cor 13 'faith" indicate a starting point in faith, hope agape initiation process. Until
"I shall know (epignōsomai) fully, even as I have been fully known."
God persuades a person of reality of Self.
But we DO have the "mind of Christ" as unambiguously revealed by Jesus on the Cross so we can infer a great many things as well as rule out a great many things. Why do you refuse to use the "mind of Christ" to test the truth of what is claimed to be from God or Jesus?
1st Corinthians 2:16 (King James Version)
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
'Faith' we speaking about is very specific.
In Greek it means:
"4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way)." https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
in 1 Cor 13 'faith" indicate a starting point in faith, hope agape initiation process. Until
"I shall know (epignōsomai) fully, even as I have been fully known."
God persuades a person of reality of Self.
No, once again, faith is not always a gift from God regardless of the above given definition. Since according to the Bible faith in Christ Jesus is necessary to obtain eternal life, and since biblically speaking God desires that all men be saved and that no man should perish, if faith was a gift from God then God would give that gift of faith to everyone without exception. But all men do not have faith in Christ Jesus.
As previously mentioned, there was a spiritual gift of faith given to some, but not all believers in order to stand up for God, but this is not the same as the faith that an unbeliever must have in response to the gospel message in order to be eternally saved.
The distinction should be obvious, but people won't think.
I love this thread. Proves we can move beyond arguments about what is in the Bible and argue about the Bible itself.
After 208 plus posts I will redirect to the original post and throw my two cents into the discussion.
My concern with a divinely inspired Bible is this.
If you take the basic fundamental tenets of Christianity (or other faiths that use the Bible as their holy writ) and state them...you don't get very far before people start arguing about what "Biblical Truth" is.
The very nature of God is pretty fundamental...and while most sects of Christianity believe in a triune God not all do. And they will point to the Bible as the reason that they don't.
Anther example would be the components of salvation and particularly the role of baptism. Is it necessary for salvation or not?
Age of accountability. Yea or nay?
The list could go on and on.
It would seem to me that if the Bible were divinely inspired then many of these doctrinal issues would be more clear and defined. And I don't buy into the "holy spirit decoder ring" nonsense because those who claim to have the 'HSDR' available to them come to different conclusions on these issues.
Do we believe so we pray or do we pray to believe?
I used to ask myself that question when I first realized that my Baptist friend's insistence that new converts had to say the "sinners prayer" was wrong. It is faith which saves us. Just as Jesus tried to teach them that all of the law and the prophets came down to love, so does this.
For faith is about seeing God for who He is. Who dares do that, in a world dominated by winners and losers? It is to decide to lose, according to all of the prevailing wisdom. It is to decide to win, according to the promise that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. That also implies change, faith actually wants that.
I don't know how many see the kingdom when they to come to Christ. Nonetheless, it reaches out to them. There may be less witness here than we need to absolutely turn without hesitancy, but what sort of people are we if we need that for everything?
I am thinking about the huge groundswell of anti-vaxxers. I have to say, if I was in a war, I would not want any of them in a foxhole next to me. I don't care how many US Marine decals they have on their clothing. I don't care how many years they spent in the military. They love their own lives more than they love others. They are those who need the extra bit to absolutely fill in every little last hole. They have been given all kinds of proof, but seem to need to go to the future and see the good outcome, so that they can travel back into the past and take the shot. They don't have any faith.
When I speculate upon why this is, I come away thinking that they just didn't get the same sort of examples as I did. God gave me the grace to see something they couldn't, to understand it in my heart. I did not get the best example of love in my life, just to be honest. Somehow, though, it was what I did get that helps me to see this. That version of love was not restricted to my child or my wife, I don't have those. It is a version of love for all mankind. It gets back to the kingdom. God has set it up to flow properly in the direction of love, how the data moves, if you will. Again, it takes faith to realize the kingdom will work. You could reject it out of hand, believing it won't come off any better than communism.
Last edited by Am I a Prophet; 10-15-2021 at 03:56 AM..
Reason: the writing process
There are things in the Bible which are inaccurate if taken to be literal. The creation and flood stories are two examples.
My point precisely, if something is definitely inaccurate such as the earth being flat, or if it contradicts another passage, then it is the meaning of what is stated that is misunderstood, not an error or contradiction in Scripture. That would nullify God Mike. He would have no legal right to hold anyone accountable. Many do not understand the Judicial quality of Jehovah.
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