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There are things in the Bible which are inaccurate if taken to be literal. The creation and flood stories are two examples.
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Originally Posted by highway54
My point precisely, if something is definitely inaccurate such as the earth being flat, or if it contradicts another passage, then it is the meaning of what is stated that is misunderstood, not an error or contradiction in Scripture. That would nullify God Mike. He would have no legal right to hold anyone accountable. Many do not understand the Judicial quality of Jehovah.
You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. The ancient Hebrews actually believed that the earth was flat and that it was supported on pillars and that the firmament was a solid dome. That is reflected in the Bible. It is a misunderstanding to deny that they actually believed that. The Bible presents an incorrect cosmology.
You're comparing two different things that have nothing to do with each other.
Again, this is relevant to the issue at hand.
Not really. Either God is sovereign, or he isn't. You seem to believe in the sovereignty of man over God. But God does allow for things that he does not wish for to happen.
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The Bible does not teach election for salvation. Again, election refers to what those who have been saved are elected to.
You have God choosing to send certain people to hell without regard to whether they or not they accept the gospel message even though the Bible tells us that God does not desire that anyone perish.
Sure it does. Have you never read Romans 9? Ephesians 1? I mean...Ephesians 1 actually says we were predestined for adoption. But you somehow think God is predestining our purpose without knowing if we will actually choose him. That's absurd.
You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. The ancient Hebrews actually believed that the earth was flat and that it was supported on pillars and that the firmament was a solid dome. That is reflected in the Bible. It is a misunderstanding to deny that they actually believed that. The Bible presents an incorrect cosmology.
That is the crack in the armor of inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible that fundamentalists of all stripes refuse to allow, Michael. It demands that we have some method of discerning what is misunderstanding and what is not. The ONLY method we have is the "mind of Christ" and God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness as revealed by Jesus on the Cross. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Not really. Either God is sovereign, or he isn't. You seem to believe in the sovereignty of man over God. But God does allow for things that he does not wish for to happen.
It's irrelevant because sin isn't the issue in salvation because Jesus already paid for our sins. The issue we are discussing is rather God decides to send save some while predestining others to hell and therefore withholding faith from them which you claim is a gift from God.
Again, Calvinistic theology is all screwed up. The faith that an unbeliever must have in order to be saved is not a gift from God. That faith is a human response to the gospel message. If he believes that Jesus died for his sins as a result of hearing the gospel he places his faith, trust, confidence in Jesus for eternal life.
In human history, by God's choice, the sovereignty of God and the 'free will' of man co-exist. A person can accept or reject the gospel message. It has nothing to do with man having sovereignty over God.
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Sure it does. Have you never read Romans 9? Ephesians 1? I mean...Ephesians 1 actually says we were predestined for adoption. But you somehow think God is predestining our purpose without knowing if we will actually choose him. That's absurd.
The opposite. God knows the future. He has both omniscience and foreknowledge. So he knows who will believe in Christ and who won't.
As for being predestined for adoption, the church-age believer is predestined for adoption. That is not the case for believers during the age of Israel. Yes, Israel is called God's son, but Old Testament believers were not adopted as are church-age believers. It's a dispensational distinction.
And I thought that you believed that we can't choose God. Yet here you are saying that we can.
The faith that an unbeliever must have in order to be saved is not a gift from God. That faith is a human response to the gospel message. If he believes that Jesus died for his sins as a result of hearing the gospel he places his faith, trust, confidence in Jesus for eternal life.
It's both a gift from God, and our response.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
Philippians 1:29 - For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Why is it a gift?
Romans 3:11b - THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
If on our own we are unable to seek Him, then...
John 6:44a - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him
John 6:65 - And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.â€
You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. The ancient Hebrews actually believed that the earth was flat and that it was supported on pillars and that the firmament was a solid dome. That is reflected in the Bible. It is a misunderstanding to deny that they actually believed that. The Bible presents an incorrect cosmology.
What you, I, or they believe is irrelevant, what does the Bible really teach was the topic. Again, if the Bible appears contradictory, then it is simply a misunderstanding on the interpreters point. The Bible does not teach the earth is flat and supported on pillars, and it does teach the earth to be a sphere, which is remarkable as even till the 1400's most people believed it was flat. Heck, I even know an intelligent person today that says it is flat. He has a very high IQ, but he is definitely in error on that.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
Philippians 1:29 - For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Why is it a gift?
Romans 3:11b - THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
If on our own we are unable to seek Him, then...
John 6:44a - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him
John 6:65 - And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.â€
That is the gift.
Faith is not a gift from God and the verses you posted do not say that it is. I've already explained the difference between the spiritual gift of faith that was given to certain believers, but not to all, and the faith that the unbeliever must have to be saved. That faith is not a gift from God but is a human response to the gospel message. And Ephesians 2:8 as has been noted is not referring to faith as the gift, but to salvation. The Greek grammar does not allow faith to be the object to which Paul refers.
Again, if the faith that is necessary to have in order for the unbeliever to be saved was a gift from God, then God is remiss for not giving EVERYONE the faith to be saved since God desires that no one perish but that all men be saved. Yet, all men will not be saved. If saving faith was a gift from God then he would give that faith to everyone without exception.
What you, I, or they believe is irrelevant, what does the Bible really teach was the topic. Again, if the Bible appears contradictory, then it is simply a misunderstanding on the interpreters point. The Bible does not teach the earth is flat and supported on pillars, and it does teach the earth to be a sphere, which is remarkable as even till the 1400's most people believed it was flat. Heck, I even know an intelligent person today that says it is flat. He has a very high IQ, but he is definitely in error on that.
I am telling what the Bible really teaches. And it teaches a flat earth resting on pillars. Scholars have long known this. The Bible is an ancient document written by an ancient people who had an ancient cosmology.
Faith is not a gift from God and the verses you posted do not say that it is. I've already explained the difference between the spiritual gift of faith that was given to certain believers, but not to all, and the faith that the unbeliever must have to be saved. That faith is not a gift from God but is a human response to the gospel message. And Ephesians 2:8 as has been noted is not referring to faith as the gift, but to salvation. The Greek grammar does not allow faith to be the object to which Paul refers.
What's a gift? Just because the word "gift" is not specifically used, doesn't mean something is not a gift. The gift is something given by someone, with no strings attached, to someone else - like an offering. The same Greek word is used to describe Abel's offering as described in Hebrews 11.
In Eph. 2:8 - the "it" and the "that" (in the NASB) refer to the same thing. It is either grace or faith. "Saved" is part of the verb structure - so it's not referring to salvation.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
Again, if the faith that is necessary to have in order for the unbeliever to be saved was a gift from God, then God is remiss for not giving EVERYONE the faith to be saved since God desires that no one perish but that all men be saved. Yet, all men will not be saved. If saving faith was a gift from God then he would give that faith to everyone without exception.
Are you seriously sending suggestions to God how He should run the world, and who should be saved? You are drifting further and further away.
You are basically saying this. Because God doesn't save everyone, then faith can't be a gift. You have this idea that if God is good - as you see goodness - then He would give the gift of faith to everybody. That's a precarious position to be in because you are defining God based on your suppositions instead of taking God for who He is.
All believers should get to the point of trusting in God and Jesus Christ, as They present Themselves in the Bible - even if it doesn't fit into our little sphere of understanding.
Some will be granted the faith that leads to eternal life, some won't - and God is still good in that. You can't remove Romans 9 from the Bible just because you don't agree with it.
There is great trouble in expecting the individual people who wrote the books to have known what they were doing. That would be like looking for their state of mind when interpreting the bible. We do that with the founding fathers of the United States. We don't do that with the bible.
We don't because we understand that the bible was "written" by a spirit. We should pause for a second, and consider which spirit. There was this Yahweh, who came down from heaven. He entered the world when God breathed in Adam, giving him life. He left Adam, when he partook from the tree. The reason why the Israelites had to travel so far to get to Mount Sinai, two months, is probably because it was located smack dab in the middle of Eden, to the east of the Holy Land. Yahweh probably didn't go very far from the place where He left them. They had to come to Him.
But this implies there is another, greater God. This would be the God who was walking in the Garden in the cool of the day. This is the same one who we see seated on the throne in Revelation. This is the Father. The weird thing about the Father is that everything happens according to His will, even what we would have to call chaos. For Jesus said that two birds can't take flight without God knowing it. Yet, we are still in prison to the devil, like the woman who was bent over for forty years. How can that be?
I say that the Father is teaching us something. I say that the scroll that is in His right hand in the book of Revelation may not be a license to judge the earth. I say it may tell the story of our fulfillment, the end of our creation. Only the Lamb can open it. For He is Yahweh, come down here to earth, spending time in the Temple, interacting with man. Then, spending time in His son, never to leave Him. For He is God becoming more comfortable with us, which is simply Him teaching us something.
And the bible is His story. Well, the story of the Father, through Him. He was the breath. He kept saying how He wanted to return to the Father. Eventually, it was about Him returning, but He wouldn't do it without His son.
Elijah, as well, kept complaining about how he was the only one. The Father was working on something. The Father told Elijah how there were 7,000 whom He had kept to Himself.
It is very telling that the marriage of the Lamb is the center point around which the entire story of Revelation pivots, which is the telling of the story of the religion of the Lamb. That is, the telling of His story. Who is the Lamb. He is not just this Jesus. He is the Seven Spirits of God sent throughout the earth. He is also Yahweh. The telling of that, and something more...
Last edited by Am I a Prophet; 10-16-2021 at 10:18 AM..
Reason: the writing process
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