Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You have answered it with denial. But its truth, some Jesus will tell them I never knew you, depart from me. Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Thats rejection not Love !
I've explained the Greek text, how the definite article is being used, what it means, etc. And yes, rejection is being spoken of. But rejection of what? It's the rejection of the fleshly nature of the soul "that works (present tense) iniquity", not the soul itself (the spirit of man, the breath of God), per se. All your responses so far have been simply more flapping of your fleshly gums.
And finally, them that He Justified, them He also Glorified !
Rom 8:30
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Notice that scripture uses the past tense here, them He also glorified. All for whom God Loved have been and will be Glorified. They were glorified first of all when they rose together with their Glorious Head, when He was Glorified after having been raised up from the dead. Remember when Jesus said, speaking of His impending death Lk 24:26
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
His Glory was entered into when He sat down at the Right Hand of God after completing the redemption of His People ! Heb 1:3
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
This is of that Glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17:5
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Now, when Christ was raised up to enter into this Glory, all for whom He represented also was raised up together with Him and also made to sit together with Him in heavenly Places Eph 2:6
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
In this connection, lets look at Col 3:
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
I made this connection because its vital to the point I am making about those Christ died and rose in behalf of, were raised up with Him above where He sits at the right hand of God, and so do they.
Now in this connection, we should more clearly understand Christ words to Nicodemus John 3:3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
This word born again is actually being born from above, so it can be read " Except a man be born from above, he cannot see or perceive the Kingdom of God.
Lets look at at a few other translations of this verse !
ISV Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."
GWT Jesus replied to Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."
YLT Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
Its referring to a New Birth from above !
ESV Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
In other words, unless one is born again anew out from above, where Christ and they in Him sit at the Right Hand of God, they cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Yes, to make it plain, only those Glorified together with Christ [Rom 8:30] are being born again anew, being born again requires having been raised up together with Christ at His resurrection and being seated at the Right Hand of God in Heavenly Places Eph 2:
6And hath raised us up together[Glorified], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Now, if God Loved all without exception, then all them He Loved have been Glorified together with Him and will be born again from above.
Those of you who insist that God Loved all without exception, are insisting [ though unwittingly] that all without exception shall be born from above where they sit with Christ on God's Right hand, there is no way around it.
But the truly enlightened know better, we know that all without exception were not raised up together with Christ and shall not be born anew from above, and so we rightly conclude, that God did not Love all men without exception !
I've explained the Greek text, how the definite article is being used, what it means, etc. And yes, rejection is being spoken of. But rejection of what? It's the rejection of the fleshly nature of the soul "that works (present tense) iniquity", not the soul itself (the spirit of man, the breath of God), per se. All your responses so far have been simply more flapping of your fleshly gums.
Greek or no greek, your response has been to deny scripture truth. Jesus plainly rejected them He says Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He knows His Sheep though Jn 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Greek or no greek, your response has been to deny scripture truth. Jesus plainly rejected them He says Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
He knows His Sheep though Jn 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
The truth of scripture is not being denied, but rather your exegesis and understanding of it. There is a difference between the two.
You've not answered as to whom or what Jesus is speaking of with the terms "them", "you" and "ye". And, what specifically the terms "them", "you" and "ye" are referencing "thatworks iniquity".
Ask yourself: What does a human being consist of? What are the parts that make up a human being? Is it the physical body itself that works iniquity, or rather the nature of the physical body and the lusts thereof? Is it the spirit of man, the breath of God that is working iniquity? And if so, how is that possible?
What relationship does the soul have with regards to the physical body, the nature of the body, and the spirit of man? Does the soul have jurisdiction over these parts. If so, how and to what extant? What do the scriptures mean with reference to the "natural man", the "carnal man", the "flesh", the "old man"? What specifically is being told to "depart" that "works iniquity"?
It's all too easy to simply say "ye". However, that is not what the Greek text actually says. It uses the definite article "οι" that is being translated as "ye". Should it be translated as a pronoun "ye"? If so, why? How are we to understand the definite article here? Do we just rely on translators to tell us? Suppose the translator doesn't really know. Perhaps the translator is spiritually dead (Christ not in him/her). What then? So, ask yourself: What antecedent (contextually) is the definite article targeting, or that we should be looking for "that works iniquity"?
You should be asking yourself these questions when reading the text.
And finally, them that He Justified, them He also Glorified !
Rom 8:30
Yes, and all souls are justified (Rom 5:18), freely so (Rom 3:24), by the gift of grace (Rom 5:15). And are objectively now, and will be subjectively so, glorified as such in the ages to come.
Christ is the elect one, singular (Isa 42:1, 1Pe 2:6). And, all souls were created in Him and have their being in Him (Col 1:16 and Act 17:28). Consequently, all, plural, are elect in Him.
Luther and Calvin simply could not get the doctrine of election right, nor was this mystery revealed to them. Luther possibly saw glimpses of it, but not Calvin. Karl Barth saw it and knew it, but was unwilling (for whatever reasons, possibly the fear of being branded a universalist) to embrace it fully, it's implications and move forward with it. UR's (self included) have seen it, know it, and are willing to go the distance with it.
The very concept of justification and election are found in Christ alone, and ALL are IN CHRIST. And All are made partakers of Christ's election and justification in the Spirit (1Ti 3:16). And this is what you've been denying in your posts. You simply are not able to "see" it.
Millenarianism is a bit of nonsense. Even when Revelation was discussed for inclusion in the canon, it was controversial. Martin Luther said it was neither apostolic nor prophetic. Calvin ignored it in his many commentaries. And yet it absolutely consumes the waking thoughts of many fundamentalists, apparently. St. John the Divine was likely speaking of the Roman Empire. Even then, he was off by several centuries.
Yes, the world will end. In several hundred million years, the sun will expand and engulf the earth. Other than that, barring a large asteroid smacking into Europe or a deadly plague or Vladimir Putin getting frisky, there is no plausible end of the world scenario. The Rapture? Nonsense, and pretty silly nonsense at that. You are not going to float off to Heaven like some errant Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon.
I think the biggest problem with the eschatological daydream of fundies, especially posts like this, is that it is inwardly focused, rather than the larger mission we as Christians are supposed to fulfill. Our job is to create God's kingdom on earth, to create a loving world where we care for one another, not busily hammer together our individual life rafts.
And that's the entire problem. It's an "I got mine" mentality. So while you guys stock up your root cellars and head to Gus's Gun Emporium to stock up on more hollow points, consider that maybe, just maybe, you should be manning a soup kitchen or tending to the needy or providing comfort to the afflicted.
Instead, the entire End-of-the-World crowd is more obsessed with showing God a good report card while the world perishes.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The World that God so Loved here in this text, has to be a world Chosen in Christ, and had to have a previous Union with Him or Else, there is another Love of God besides that which He has that is in Christ Jesus Per Rom 8:38-39
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God has no Love for any who He does not consider in Christ Jesus. Now Does He consider all without exception in Christ Jesus ? What about the devil and his children, the children of the wicked one as per Matt 13:38
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Are they in that world that God so Loved in Christ Jesus ?
Yes, and all souls are justified (Rom 5:18), freely so (Rom 3:24), by the gift of grace (Rom 5:15). And are objectively now, and will be subjectively so, glorified as such in the ages to come.
Christ is the elect one, singular (Isa 42:1, 1Pe 2:6). And, all souls were created in Him and have their being in Him (Col 1:16 and Act 17:28). Consequently, all, plural, are elect in Him.
Luther and Calvin simply could not get the doctrine of election right, nor was this mystery revealed to them. Luther possibly saw glimpses of it, but not Calvin. Karl Barth saw it and knew it, but was unwilling (for whatever reasons, possibly the fear of being branded a universalist) to embrace it fully, it's implications and move forward with it. UR's (self included) have seen it, know it, and are willing to go the distance with it.
The very concept of justification and election are found in Christ alone, and ALL are IN CHRIST. And All are made partakers of Christ's election and justification in the Spirit (1Ti 3:16). And this is what you've been denying in your posts. You simply are not able to "see" it.
No everyone isnt Justified, Some are condemned already. Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So those already condemned cant be part of the ones who have been Justified to life Rom 5:18. Rom 5:18 applies to the elect Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
No everyone isnt Justified, Some are condemned already. Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So those already condemned cant be part of the ones who have been Justified to life Rom 5:18. Rom 5:18 applies to the elect Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Again, that is speaking of the flesh, the "natural man". It's the natural man that cannot, will not, nor is it able, to hear, believe and receive spiritual things, those things of the Spirit (1Co 2:14)
The elect are ALL souls in the elect one: Christ. All souls are elect according to the spirit, not the flesh.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The World that God so Loved here in this text, has to be a world Chosen in Christ, and had to have a previous Union with Him or Else, there is another Love of God besides that which He has that is in Christ Jesus Per Rom 8:38-39
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God has no Love for any who He does not consider in Christ Jesus. Now Does He consider all without exception in Christ Jesus ? What about the devil and his children, the children of the wicked one as per Matt 13:38
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Are they in that world that God so Loved in Christ Jesus ?
All souls are IN CHRIST (Act 17:28 and Col 1:16), and are loved according to the spirit, the image of God. Not the flesh. Nor are we to know anyone for whom Christ died (and He died for all) according to the flesh (2Co 5:14 and 18).
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
