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It's a good question S&S and a good topic. Why should a believer in Christ Jesus, or why should someone who believes in God not believe in other supernatural beings which the Bible plainly says exists? Claiming as some people do that . . .''well, this is the 21st century and we know better now'' is not a valid reason. If angels and demons exist then they exist regardless of what century it is.
I know there is a large percentage of Christians who don't believe in the devil or other supernatural entities.
Makes sense for a non-believer, but as a Christian, what do you base your position on? Since you do believe in a supernatural God....
How do you regard the many Bible verses mentioning the "Dark Side"?
For me it is about understanding what that “dark side” is and what it is not (and that relates to context)
I do not believe that a spiritual evil entity called Satan was created at the beginning fully formed so to speak
But I do believe that it has developed from the beginning as a consequence of our (humanities) individual and collective free-will to participate in it (at different levels)
Gen 3:1**Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
H5172***(Strong)
נָחַשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - *X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
Joh 8:42**Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43**Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44**Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Cain and Abel are stories about Adams progeny who are brothers and one of them was a lier and murder which is “satanic” “devilish” as it does not conform to what humans have instilled in them relating to our conscience and spirit that we all have
The awareness of morality is not a Christian thing it is there as a human thing, it is in our composition of flesh/spirit being united as a living organism with emotional and intellectual (creative) ability
For me it is about understanding what that “dark side” is and what it is not (and that relates to context)
I do not believe that a spiritual evil entity called Satan was created at the beginning fully formed so to speak
But I do believe that it has developed from the beginning as a consequence of our (humanities) individual and collective free-will to participate in it (at different levels)
Gen 3:1**Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
H5172***(Strong)
נָחַשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - *X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
Joh 8:42**Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43**Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44**Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Cain and Abel are stories about Adams progeny who are brothers and one of them was a lier and murder which is “satanic” “devilish” as it does not conform to what humans have instilled in them relating to our conscience and spirit that we all have
The awareness of morality is not a Christian thing it is there as a human thing, it is in our composition of flesh/spirit being united as a living organism with emotional and intellectual (creative) ability
You present an interesting theory about the status of Satan, otherwise known as the internal "serpent" that is the source of our indiscriminate carnal drives. This would mean that being "born again" as Spirit is NOT tied to loving God and each other, Meerkat. It would mean that becoming a spirit is independent of what kind of spirit we become, i.e., just an automatic and "natural" product of being human.
Frankly, that would be quite unsettling because it would suggest that the truly evil, savage, and barbaric ancestors in our human history could actually exist as spirits in a collective. That would mean that the collective human consciousness is binary - accumulating carnality and evil versus accumulating spirituality and love.
This would suggest that we are either just one or the other which I reject because I am certain we are comprised of BOTH. That is why we need to have the dross refined out of us. Besides, I reject that simply because I encountered no such binary consciousness. It was all love and acceptance.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 11-06-2021 at 05:16 PM..
You present an interesting theory about the status of Satan, otherwise known as the internal "serpent" that is the source of our indiscriminate carnal drives. This would mean that being "born again" as Spirit is NOT tied to loving God and each other, Meerkat. It would mean that becoming a spirit is independent of what kind of spirit we become, i.e., just an automatic and "natural" product of being human.
Frankly, that would be quite unsettling because it would suggest that the truly evil, savage, and barbaric ancestors in our human history could actually exist as spirits in a collective. That would mean that the collective human consciousness is binary - accumulating carnality and evil versus accumulating spirituality and love. This would suggest that we are either just one or the other which I reject because I am certain we are comprised of BOTH. That is why we need to have the dross refined out of us. Besides, I reject that simply because I encountered no such binary consciousness. It was all love and acceptance.
I also see what you see of that highest
What I see is there is and always will be a limitation on evil by design, and there is absolutely no limitation on righteousness
And I don’t see it as an either/ or
Exo 20:5**Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6**And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7**Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven..."
Note that Jesus also saw Satan when he was tested in the wilderness.
If Jesus said he saw Satan, then I believe there is a Satan.
If Jesus said he cast out demons, then I believe there are demons.
I hate having to admit there are such things, because I fear them, but it is what it is. I can't explain why some Christians don't believe in Satan or demons. It took me a long time to really know that belief. Maybe they are just fearful like I am, or maybe they haven't yet read the bible. I don't know.
I know there is a large percentage of Christians who don't believe in the devil or other supernatural entities.
Makes sense for a non-believer, but as a Christian, what do you base your position on? Since you do believe in a supernatural God....
How do you regard the many Bible verses mentioning the "Dark Side"?
I am pretty sure evil exists in humans, to more of an extent in some than in others, and I think that there is a possibility that there are dark spirits, for want of a better term, but I don't believe in a personification of evil called the devil (or the various other names by which this entity is known.)
I base it on the fact that Satan was not the personification of evil in Judaism, from whence Christianity was born. Satan in what we call the Old Testament is an agent of God sent to test and tempt humans. One Jewish person once likened Satan to Slugworth in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, the guy who works for Willie Wonka and tries to get Charlie to sell out the secret of the Everlasting Gobstopper.
Satan worked for God.
But post-Jesus, as the church developed and changed, Satan became the personification of evil as the concept of a firy hell where eternal punishment awaited unbelievers also developed.
By the way, like some other Christians going back to when the biblical canon was established, I also don't believe Revelation is some prediction of the end of the world and that the drama and imagery therein foretells the future. A lot of the devil/hell stuff comes from that interpretation. Revelation did generate some really cool artwork, though.
I am pretty sure evil exists in humans, to more of an extent in some than in others, and I think that there is a possibility that there are dark spirits, for want of a better term, but I don't believe in a personification of evil called the devil (or the various other names by which this entity is known.)
I base it on the fact that Satan was not the personification of evil in Judaism, from whence Christianity was born. Satan in what we call the Old Testament is an agent of God sent to test and tempt humans. One Jewish person once likened Satan to Slugworth in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, the guy who works for Willie Wonka and tries to get Charlie to sell out the secret of the Everlasting Gobstopper.
Satan worked for God.
But post-Jesus, as the church developed and changed, Satan became the personification of evil as the concept of a firy hell where eternal punishment awaited unbelievers also developed.
By the way, like some other Christians going back to when the biblical canon was established, I also don't believe Revelation is some prediction of the end of the world and that the drama and imagery therein foretells the future. A lot of the devil/hell stuff comes from that interpretation. Revelation did generate some really cool artwork, though.
Revelation is a dangerous scripture for many reasons besides the difficulty of comprehension and interpretation. There are good reasons its addition to the canon was disputed and controversial.
Revelation is a dangerous scripture for many reasons besides the difficulty of comprehension and interpretation. There are good reasons its addition to the canon was disputed and controversial.
I believe it needs to be treated with caution because of the high level of symbolism used within it
There is good reason for it to be included as well I believe.
I am pretty sure evil exists in humans, to more of an extent in some than in others, and I think that there is a possibility that there are dark spirits, for want of a better term, but I don't believe in a personification of evil called the devil (or the various other names by which this entity is known.)
I base it on the fact that Satan was not the personification of evil in Judaism, from whence Christianity was born. Satan in what we call the Old Testament is an agent of God sent to test and tempt humans. One Jewish person once likened Satan to Slugworth in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, the guy who works for Willie Wonka and tries to get Charlie to sell out the secret of the Everlasting Gobstopper.
Satan worked for God.
But post-Jesus, as the church developed and changed, Satan became the personification of evil as the concept of a firy hell where eternal punishment awaited unbelievers also developed.
By the way, like some other Christians going back to when the biblical canon was established, I also don't believe Revelation is some prediction of the end of the world and that the drama and imagery therein foretells the future. A lot of the devil/hell stuff comes from that interpretation. Revelation did generate some really cool artwork, though.
Actually, MQ, 2nd temple period Judaism did have an evil Satan figure. For example, in the Dead Sea Scrolls War Scroll he goes by the name of Belial. While in the Old Testament belial is more of a principle, in extra-biblical 2nd temple period texts belial was personified as an evil entity. This can be seen for example in column 13 of the War Scroll.
(1) and his brothers the [pr]iests, the Levites, and all the elders of the Army with him. They shall bless from their position, the God of Israel and all His works of truth, and they shall curse (2)[Beli]al there and all the spirits of his forces. And they shall say response: "Blessed is the God of Israel for all His holy purpose and His works of truth. And blessed are
(3) those who serve Him richteously, who know Him by faith. (4)And cursed is Belial for his contentious purpose, and accursed for his reprehensible rule. And cursed are all the spirits of his lot for their wicked purpose.
(5) Accursed are they for all their filthy dirty service. For they are the lot of darkness, but the lot of God is light
(6) [eterna]l.
(7) Y[o]u are the God of our fathers. We bless Your name forever, for we are an [eter]na[l] people. You made a covenant with our fathers, and will establish it for their seed
(8) throughout the ages of eternity. In all the testimonies of Your glory there has been remembrance of Your [kindness] in our midst as an assistance to the remnant and the survivors for the sake of Your covenant
(9) and to re[count] Your works of truth and the judgments of Your wondrous strength. And You, [O God], created us for Yourself as an eternal people, and into the lot of light You cast us
(10) in accordance with Your truth. You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in [His] l[ot are all sons of righteous]ness and all spirits of truth are in his dominion. You yourself
(11) made Belial for the pit, an angel of malevolence, his [dominio]n is in darkne[ss] and his counsel is to condemn and convict. All the spirits
(12) of his lot -- the angels of destruction-- walk in accord with the rule of darkness, for it is their only [des]ire. But we, in the lot of Your truth, rejoice in
(13) Your mighty hand. We rejoice in Your salvation, and revel in [Your] hel[p and] Your [p]eace. Who is like You in strength, O God of Israel, and yet
(14) Your mighty hand is with the oppressed. What angel or prince is like You for [Your] effe[ctual] support, [fo]r of old You appointed for Yourself a day of gre[at battle ...]
(15) [...] to [sup]port truth and to destroy iniquity, to bring darkness low and to lend might to light, and to [...]
(16) [...] for an eternal stand, and to annihilate all the Sons of Darkness and bring joy to [al]l [the Sons of Light ...]
(17) [...]
(18) [... f]or You Yourself designated us for an app[ointed time ...]
Satan as an evil entity is not the creation of Christianity but comes right out of 2nd temple period Judaism.
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Revelation is a dangerous scripture for many reasons besides the difficulty of comprehension and interpretation. There are good reasons its addition to the canon was disputed and controversial.