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The scribes and Pharisees were people who were not born again but who were virtuous according to the law.
Jesus said that while they cleaned the outside of the cup and platter, their inward parts were like dead men's bones (Matthew 23:25-28).
Yes I understand that distinction but that is more about salvation than sanctification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
And I will say that it is not that good works are an evidence of salvation; but that the absence of good works might be the evidence of a lack thereof.
And yet James said that salvation without [good] works is dead.
I will say however that it is not really your or my place to judge these things because it is a ridiculously subjective exercise best left to god in your belief system. Why? Well for one thing in what way would it be a legitimate concern of anyone other than god? It is a matter between each believer and god, since it is a "personal" relationship. And god in your reckoning always judges righteously. Whereas people can judge on a far less perfect understanding. Apart from the practical matter of what kind of harmful actions would make a person so odious to one's fellow believers that they'd have to be excluded from fellowship, I can't see any real need to be judging fellow believers. And those should be real outlier cases, things like starting wars (why is Putin not excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church by now??), sexually abusing children, etc.
As an example that comest to mind, my late / previous wife was, due to chronic illness, highly variable in her ability to exert herself to activities outside the home. Except in her final few years, she could occasionally pull it off. But being regular in church attendance was not something she was capable of as her symptoms were stubbornly unpredictable. I have zero doubt that some of her fellow believers judged her for that, and considered it evidence against her being a True Christian(tm). They certainly had no use for her after the 2nd or 3rd time she was unable to make some planned or scheduled activity. They did not understand her situation and made no effort to. This exemplifies to me why Christians have no business judging the spirituality, righteousness or dedication of fellow believers. It is too easy to assume too much. The approach to people's private walk with god should be gentle and humble, not strident and arrogant. I saw too much of the latter over the years.
And do you know the reason why he said they were like dead men's bones? Because they went around judging other people whom they didn't believe were as holy as they were. Jesus hates judgmental people. That's why he was so comfortable around the tax collectors and harlots. They were real. He appreciates real.
And you're certainly not judging me to be like the scribes and Pharisees, are you?
I don't point the finger at anyone, I let the word of the Lord discern the thoughts and intents of people's hearts (Hebrews 4:12).
But the scribes and Pharisees considered that they were good people because they kept the law impeccably;
They were attempting to enter into the kingdom on the basis of their own personal merits, works, or law-keeping.
It is not self-righteousness to say or teach that there is only one way into the kingdom...through faith in Jesus Christ.
As a matter of fact, it is the antithesis of self-righteousness to say or teach such a thing.
If you can only enter in through Christ, then you can't enter in on the basis of your own personal merits, works, or law-keeping. The latter three things are self-righteousness.
The first thing is the righteousness of the Lord as it is given to a man through faith.
Because your understanding of the Bible is colored by the non-biblical documents that you read.
Pal, you don't have a f-ing clue what my understanding of the Bible is based on. More than anything else, it's based on my personal relationship with my Father in Heaven.
Pal, you don't have a f-ing clue what my understanding of the Bible is based on. More than anything else, it's based on my personal relationship with my Father in Heaven.
Wow! I thought mormons were supposed to be godly people.
So much for God being in all of your thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
And what evidence is there that someone is sanctified? If sanctification does not result in a change in good fruit, what's the point?
I don't point the finger at anyone, I let the word of the Lord discern the thoughts and intents of people's hearts (Hebrews 4:12).
You've got to be kidding. You've pointed the finger at me on multiple occasions even today. You've gone so far as saying that you don't believe I'll be saved unless I believe as you do. Better check out than beam in your eye, pal.
Wow! I thought mormons were supposed to be godly people.
See, there you go pointing the finger at me again. And you're lying as well. You've never thought Mormons were godly people. You think we're damned.
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