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From a non religious perspective, cause I am not going to understand biblical language with all due respect
I am looking more at natural disasters or global climatic collapses or introduction of a new species perhaps, not really human events like war, famine, recession or sporting events
But if you want to quote Bible verses, no problem, just make sure to translate it into literalist language.
In my opinion I don’t think the bible is the place to look for that type of thing
The writers of the various books of the bible were referencing other documents (or inspirations) and the bible is a collection, I see it as encyclopaedic
It is more of a theological work than about the natural, physical world itself and uses symbols, metaphors, etc and the myths and stories are written to religious people about their own duties, responsibilities and the penalties for their own failure
First off Isaiah and Cyrus are separated by more like 125 years, not 400.
Both church tradition and scholarship tell us that the book of Isaiah is an anthology consisting of Isaiah proper (chapters 1-39) and deutro-Isaiah (chapters 40-66, which, pointedly, do not mention Isaiah at all). The latter being the work of an anonymous prophet and per textual analysis written at about the time Cyrus was king. So neither a miracle nor a prophecy are needed to explain how Cyrus got in there by name.
Does that make the prophecy any less of a miracle?
I learned that it was 400 yrs from the Plain Truth Magazine; however they were later determined to be a cult. So I wouldn't be surprised if they misinformed me.
I would not even recommend it for predicting Christ's return -- even when Christ himself was predicting it. "Some of you listening to me here today will not see death before I return". Seems like it is 2000 years off and counting.
That is not what He said. He said that they would not taste of death before the kingdom came in its power. Which was fulfilled in the transfiguration which was the next event recorded in both gospels where Jesus said this.
I would not even recommend it for predicting Christ's return -- even when Christ himself was predicting it. "Some of you listening to me here today will not see death before I return". Seems like it is 2000 years off and counting.
Only for the physically-minded Christians who expected a physical return. They completely missed and misinterpreted His return at Pentecost as the Comforter (paraclete).
Only for the physically-minded Christians who expected a physical return. They completely missed and misinterpreted His return at Pentecost as the Comforter (paraclete).
Does that make the prophecy any less of a miracle?
I learned that it was 400 yrs from the Plain Truth Magazine; however they were later determined to be a cult. So I wouldn't be surprised if they misinformed me.
I miss 'ole Herbert and Garner Ted. That church actually split into four or five new organizations and the one most closely associated with Herbert Armstrong has their headquarters and their bible college in the town where I went to High School.
As to the topic, there are certainly a lot of scriptures in the OT that Christians indicate are prophecies fulfilled by the coming of Jesus as well as his life, death and resurrection. Too lazy to look them up but I think there are hundreds.
I would not even recommend it for predicting Christ's return -- even when Christ himself was predicting it. "Some of you listening to me here today will not see death before I return". Seems like it is 2000 years off and counting.
There are some REALLY old people walking around not yet identified by the Enquirer.
But seriously, OP, the Bible, or to be more accurate, the 66 different writings that make up the Bible are not primarily designed to foretell the future, so what prompted this question to begin with?
Even Revelation, which many seem to believe is some sort of future-telling device, is thought by many scholars to be about events that occurred a long time ago, referring, perhaps, to the Roman Empire in code and apocalyptic language.
There are some REALLY old people walking around not yet identified by the Enquirer.
But seriously, OP, the Bible, or to be more accurate, the 66 different writings that make up the Bible are not primarily designed to foretell the future, so what prompted this question to begin with?
Even Revelation, which many seem to believe is some sort of future-telling device, is thought by many scholars to be about events that occurred a long time ago, referring, perhaps, to the Roman Empire in code and apocalyptic language.
There are many different eschatologies (doctrine of the end of days) derived largely from this book. And the key question is, what is the "rapture" and when does it occur, is it literal or figurative. What is the tribulation period, etc. The "tribulation" has been identified as everything from the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD to some future event. And the "rapture" of the church will occur either at the start, middle or end of the tribulation (these are the pre, mid and post-tribulationist stances). The tribulation is said to be 7 units of time in length and divided in half as two 3.5 unit periods (cryptically, "a time, times and half a time"). These units are generally assumed to be years.
It is all good rollicking fun for conspiracy theorist-style thinking but basically the fever dream that is The Revelation of John is whatever you want it to be. I just want to know what he was high on when he wrote it, lol.
This "read into it what you will" aspect is true of all Biblical prophecy. It is always some vivid and fantastical imagery with layered figurative, symbolic and possibly literal meanings. In the early 1960s when my family was converted to fundamentalist Christianity, there was a popular chalk artist in the Chicago area where we lived giving illustrated talks about the coming rapture and tribulation. I remember a passage in Revelation that speaks of a plague of locusts released from the pit of hell that had "hair like women's hair". She said this "obviously" referred to modern fighter jets and their contrails. I mean, well, obviously, right, to the modern eye? I can envision each generation casting about for something in real life that resembles this imagery, and coming up with something entirely different.
There is OT prophecy about future kingdoms that will arise, e.g., one of iron, one of bronze, one with feet of clay, etc., and throughout the centuries this vague imagery has seemed applicable to various nations and kingdoms that were known at that time. This is the mechanism by which "prophecy" is "fulfilled". It is just pattern matching and garden-variety confirmation bias. Nothing special.
05-19-2022, 10:28 AM
xd4t5gv
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
That is not what He said. He said that they would not taste of death before the kingdom came in its power. Which was fulfilled in the transfiguration which was the next event recorded in both gospels where Jesus said this.
Matthew 16
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
This is not talking about the vision 6 days later. The above phrase does not make any sense to say if it was 6 days later. The idea that is corollary to the above phrase is that some would die and the vision was not the actual kingdom nor Jesus coming in power - the actual physical return with a real earthly kingdom.
Then the narrative timeline has Jesus saying in Matthew 24, way after ch.17 (the vision) that this generation will not pass away until all those things mentioned are fulfilled - including his return.
Only Christians who can't deal truthfully with the text talk like you do! There are a dozen timing verses in the NT that show that the prediction for Jesus' return failed - it was to be soon, near, at the door, etc. and the above quotes are just two of them. But you go on believing whatever you need to believe!
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There are a dozen timing verses in the NT that show that the prediction for Jesus' return failed - it was to be soon, near, at the door, etc. and the above quotes are just two of them. But you go on believing whatever you need to believe!
