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wow, what fantastic responses! thanks, everybody. i really appreciate the time you all took to post such thoughtful answers. it was great to read your posts and realize i'm really NOT the only one who feels this way, lol!
2MO: i'd love to know what you think about how to define "lukewarm". i'm not being sarcastic at ALL, i hope it doesn't sound like i am. i'm sincere. it's a topic i'm confused about. for instance, i accepted Christ at the age of 9, but only attended church until my early 20's. does the lack of church attendance make one lukewarm, in your opinion? because i thought what i was taught all those years was that once one accepted Christ, sincerely accepting and believing that He is the son of God and that his sacrifice for us was real, then we would not be turned away by Him. faith, not works. am i misunderstanding something? i'd love to know your opinion.
MARIAN - thanks very much for the suggestion of the concordance. i've always been interested in doing that. (i have 4 children and homeschool, so time is an issue).
SIMPLELIVING - thanks for the suggestion regarding what to do if i don't know where i stand on certain things. because the truth is, i don't. when it comes to things like whether the earth is thousands of years old or millions, i seriously don't have an opinion. i feel like i'm open to the fact that either interpretation could be correct. i think that's one of the ways in which i have trouble with church as well.....that is, i'm always wondering, "how do i know if THAT person (whoever is the pastor, etc.) is interpreting the Bible correctly?" i suppose that's where praying for guidance to the right church comes in. truth is though, that i've done that over the years. and i never feel moved to attend any specific church. i don't even feel strongly moved to go to church at all. i'm kind of confused about that.
RDSLOTS - yes, i do feel concerned about what kind of "indoctrination" my children will come away with. i mean, i want them to always have a relationship with God. My own relationship with God has been truly, the most amazing component of my existence. and it continues to be. but i just feel somewhere inside like getting seriously involved in church runs the risk of me inadvertently teaching my children to blindly follow men. it's the intentions of man i am leery of, not God. now, i DID have a seriously bad experience with a cult-like religious organization back in 1993 that led me to feel that way about organized religion. and i do acknowledge that not ALL churches are going to be crazy like that one was, but it certainly opens up one's mind to the very real truth that some places that claim to be "churches" are really pretty dangerous to one's faith and well being. and i think i may still be a little stuck on that.
BLUE62 - i really appreciated your perspective. do you still find that even though your faith is strong, that you continue to question what people say is truth? for instance, i always wonder in my mind if ANY of us are interpreting the Bible correctly, lol. maybe it's just a personality trait, rather than a flaw in my faith. i try to remind myself that it's God who made me a person who thinks this way, there must be a reason for it!
DAYOFTHELORD - thanks for sharing your experience with me! my upbringing was sort of similar to your son's, in that my parents NEVER took me to church. there were busses run by the local churches that would drive down our streets on sunday mornings, and i'd just get ready for church and go on my own, from the age of about 9. in fact, me and 3 of my friends decided to get baptized when i was 12 years old, and NONE of our parents even attended. i can see that my own children really DO love God and have their own relationships with Him. but if we could find a really good organized environment (read, church), i think i'd like that for them, too. i'm still thinking about it.
SHANA - i understand what you are saying. however, the experiences i seem to have are that the longer the people have been a part of a church, the more likely they are to be the kind of people i don't feel i relate to? i'm not meaning to be judgemental...it's not even that i'm saying "i'm right, they're wrong", because that's not really where i'm coming from. it's just that i feel i don't identify with many of the people i encounter who jump out and proclaim "i'm Christian!" now, there are MANY people i feel i identify with perfectly, who never say they are Christian to me. it's their actions that impress me.
DOJILYNN - thanks for the input. i know, sometimes i feel message forums are not THE greatest place to discuss important things, lol. however, i'm getting some really great responses here and that's nice! so far, so good!
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable"
Great quote from DC talk.
The biggest problem with organized religion is that there are people in it. People will always try to hitch their wagon to a belief system in order to twist it and make it work in the way they want it to work in. Whether it be one issue or another, they will twist the Bible to mean what they want it to mean and try to use it against other people. I am not in the position to judge, so I don't make judgements on anyone, I don't sit there and try to see what everyone else is doing and point out their shortcomings in order to make myself feel better. I believe that all I need is my belief system, I don't need 250 million other people to justify it.
People do things that should not be done and try to hitch it to God or to the Bible. There is no excuse for biggotry or closed mindedness.
The good news is that yes there are churches out there which are accepting and loving regardless of your background, your exact interpretation of the Bible etc. There are people who represent the true love of Christ and don't ask anything in return.
I'm not a regular church attender, but when I do attend a few of the churches in my area, I don't feel a cold shoulder at all!
I didn't read the other posts so this is just going to be my perspective.
We all come into the body of Christ expecting to be joining one big, happy, loving family,... immediately.
Instead, what you find is a mass of humanity. All very different. All with their own expectations... of what the body of Christ is to be like. Many of them are hurting... wounded... unable to show agape love. Most of us don't exactly reflect who Jesus was... in our actions.
None of us have arrived. All of us are still trying to understand God's love... growing... changing... hurting... not knowing how to express it or who we can trust!
Until we get to heaven we will always be in earthly bodies. There's no getting around it.
So my point is simply.... I think it's all about unrealistic expectations.
What we have to do is try to love unconditionally, regardless!
Last edited by World Citizen; 05-23-2008 at 02:57 PM..
I am sort of getting the feeling that some go to 'church' with the purpose of examining every member to see if they are what they want them to be. I go to Worship God. I do not analyze everyone to see ifthey fit 'my pattern'. We sing together, pray together, listen to the word of God being preached/taught,and partake the Lord's supper together.
Before and afterwards we visit with one another. We all leave to go to our individual lives, and none of us have identical lives. Very few of us have identical views on things that are not really important. I hope we agree on all that is important.
Just like a physical family, we have our favorites, and those who do not appeal so much to us. People are people, and yet I love them all....not always with affection, but because I wish the best for them, the same as I do for myself...spiritually and physically. Hopefully we are all striving to please God. God will be the judge. Some are weak, some are strong, some are in between. I hope to gain strength from the strong, and give strength to the weak. :-)
2MO: i'd love to know what you think about how to define "lukewarm". i'm not being sarcastic at ALL, i hope it doesn't sound like i am. i'm sincere. it's a topic i'm confused about. for instance, i accepted Christ at the age of 9, but only attended church until my early 20's. does the lack of church attendance make one lukewarm, in your opinion? because i thought what i was taught all those years was that once one accepted Christ, sincerely accepting and believing that He is the son of God and that his sacrifice for us was real, then we would not be turned away by Him. faith, not works. am i misunderstanding something? i'd love to know your opinion.
I love that you are sincere, it shows you really want to learn and grow. I thought I had been saved around the age of 9 as well because I prayed a prayer, but I now understand that is not what salvation is. Many people teach to just follow them in prayer and *poof* you are now saved, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Salvation is a leading by the Holy Spirit, a true belief in the redemption Christ gave, and a repentence of sin, turning from your sin to a new life in Christ. When one gets "saved" they become born again, a new creature in Christ. They no longer love things of the world but live to serve the Lord. Have you been born again?
It would take me a while to describe what it means to be lukewarm, so I hope this site helps, sums it up very well, Lukewarm Christians l What Is A Lukewarm "Christian?" l Are You Lukewarm? l Lukewarm Test l SO4J.com l Rev 3:15-20 (http://so4j.com/teachingsbible/lukewarmtest.html - broken link)
The other thing you described would be along the lines of the belief of once saved always saved, and that is a touchy subject for many Believers. From early on in my walk I believe the Lord has shown me through His word that one has to stay in fellowship with Him and not turn their back on Him. It would not be Him turning away from us but us turning from Him, as we have free will. One can not serve two god's, everyone loves either the world or God, but not both. If you read the story of the prodigal son maybe you will understand more. I think most who fall away or become lukewarm will return, but there are some who choose not to.
Also, even satan and his angels believe Jesus is the son of God and know of His sacrifice that is why the Bible says only those that do the will of the Father will enter into His kingdom. I hope to see you there, and I hope I answered your question. Feel free to ask if you have any more
SIMPLELIVING - thanks for the suggestion regarding what to do if i don't know where i stand on certain things. because the truth is, i don't. when it comes to things like whether the earth is thousands of years old or millions, i seriously don't have an opinion. i feel like i'm open to the fact that either interpretation could be correct. i think that's one of the ways in which i have trouble with church as well.....that is, i'm always wondering, "how do i know if THAT person (whoever is the pastor, etc.) is interpreting the Bible correctly?" i suppose that's where praying for guidance to the right church comes in. truth is though, that i've done that over the years. and i never feel moved to attend any specific church. i don't even feel strongly moved to go to church at all. i'm kind of confused about that.
You're welcome, Pippi. I don't think it's important to have a stance on the age of the earth. There are many arguments out there that I don't think are all that important. They don't affect a person's salvation. I used to hold a lot of beliefs but realized that I believed them because other people told me about them. I couldn't honestly say that I had studied or prayed about them and heard from God for myself on those matters. I think that's really important.
That's why it's important to take what other people say, including pastors, and weigh it against the scriptures and take it to God in prayer.
As far as not feeling moved to attend a specific church, I'm right there with you. From my experience, God works in our lives as we move in faith and take steps. If a church you attend for three or four weeks isn't the one where God wants you, I believe you'll know it. You'll have a peace about that decision. The thing is, you'll never know until you begin to pray and start attending.
I am sort of getting the feeling that some go to 'church' with the purpose of examining every member to see if they are what they want them to be. I go to Worship God. I do not analyze everyone to see ifthey fit 'my pattern'. We sing together, pray together, listen to the word of God being preached/taught,and partake the Lord's supper together.
Before and afterwards we visit with one another. We all leave to go to our individual lives, and none of us have identical lives. Very few of us have identical views on things that are not really important. I hope we agree on all that is important.
Just like a physical family, we have our favorites, and those who do not appeal so much to us. People are people, and yet I love them all....not always with affection, but because I wish the best for them, the same as I do for myself...spiritually and physically. Hopefully we are all striving to please God. God will be the judge. Some are weak, some are strong, some are in between. I hope to gain strength from the strong, and give strength to the weak. :-)
Marian, you're a dear sister to me! I often thank God for your posts and the wisdom in them!
You've hit the nail on the head. Far, far too many people attend church based on what's in it for them. What activities do they have? Do I like the people that go there? Do they make me feel welcomed? What kind of music do they play? They sit and judge the pastor, the congregation, checking their watches, wishing they could sit down, eyes wandering and watching everyone else as they sing as though they're singing along to the radio, wonder where they're going to lunch - hoping they get there first before other churches get out and crowd the place, and hoping to get back home in time for the football game.
They don't prepare their hearts to come before the Lord to worship Him and Hear his Word. They aren't there to serve others and be fed and encouraged, much less to encourage others. Church is a duty to them, not a joy. We meet collectively, as the body of Christ, to come before Him in worship and adoration, not to appease our sense of Christian obligation like checking something off a To Do list.
Simple Living, you are so right. If a person is going to 'church' for any reason other than to worship God (according to His word), and to fellowship with their brethren, they are actually wasting their time. The only good that may come from their going, is that they may eventually come to the knowledge of what the church is really about. If the church is not brothers and sisters in Christ, it is no more than a social club. Every male member is my brother, every female member is my sister. I can go to any congregation anywhere in the world, and it will be the same if they are the Lord's church.
Issues with tolerance and acceptance of other people...I don't find tolerance and acceptance in churches I've visited...one church in particular, everyone dressed up, men in suits and ties.
I didn't own a suit or tie. I owned jeans and T-shirts.
What was that ad? "No matter who you are, or where you are on life's journey, you're welcome here."?
That's what a church SHOULD be.
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