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This is false. The modern term or phraze "ethnic cleansing" does not apply to Yahweh/Jehovah who commanded the Israellites to disposess the land of it's false religious inhabitants. There was also provision in the Law of Moses for the alien resident (non-Israelite) who wished to reside among God's people Israel. They had to worship only the God of Abraham and abide by the Law of Moses. A benefit of erraticating the inhabitants of the land would be to mainly destroy false religious ideas and gods out of Israel and keep their worship to God clean and pure. They also did'nt erraticate all those nations. An example was the Gibeonites with whom they made a covenant with. They heard what the God of Israel had done for them in Egypt and wanted no conflict with them. Hence they became as servants to Israel, got circumcised and worshipped the true God of Israel.
Your "Ethnic Cleansing" belief is based on modern ideas and apparently has many adherents in the last few centuries. Especially religious ones as history has proven. But this has nothing to do with the God who authored the Holy Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
Deu 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all [them] that hate thee.
Deu 7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that [will be] a snare unto thee.
Deu 7:17 ¶ If thou shalt say in thine heart, These nations [are] more than I; how can I dispossess them?
Deu 7:18 Thou shalt not be afraid of them: [but] shalt well remember what the LORD thy God did unto Pharaoh, and unto all Egypt;
Again, Israel was commanded to disposess the demon worshipping inhabitants of the land. But interestingly God did most of the fighting for them in many cases as is stated in verse 18 of Deut chapter 7. As long as the Israelites were faithful, as stated , he would come to their rescue and protect them. However, if they proved unfaithful as they did on many occasions, then he allowed the surrounding nations to overrun them.
Verse 16 of Deut Chapter 7 also states the reason for removing the inhabitants. False worship had to be irraticated. But all of this was hardly God's order of "Ethnic Cleansing". When the Israelites left Egypt, the scriptures state that a vast mixed company came with them. No doubt Egyptians, Ethiopians and whoever else saw the miracles Yahweh performed against Pharaoh and became believers in the God of Abraham. They became prosyletes. Again there was provision made in the Mosaic Law for non Hebrews or non Israelites who were of another national origin but wanted to dwell in the land of Israel. So a Proselyte was one who converted to Judaism and became a worshipper of Israel's God Yahweh or Jehovah and was also obligated to become circumcised and keep the Law.
Exodus 12:48,49 - Leviticus 19:33,34 - Lev 24:22 - Gal 5:3
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
Deut 7:6 "For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself above all people who [are] upon the surface of the earth."
Deu 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth."
godspeed, freedom
Here also is where God did the choosing of the the people of Israel over others. Why???? Because they were Abraham's descendants. So the Israelites did not choose themselves as God's chosen ones. Had Abraham been Chinese or African, then God would have chosen them because they would have been Abraham's descendants. So there was no racial preference going on here which would justify any modern day movement or even 19th century movement of your "Ethnic Cleansing". I'm sure the very thought of the possibility of Abraham being an African sends shutters down the spine of many a white ethnic background Eurpoean religious folk. God does'nt view humans the way humans view humans. He created ALL equal and with variety as he had intended.
Here's a beautiful example of God's seeing a man differently from the way imperfect humans view and judge others. This is when Samuel is sent by God to the house of Jesse to anoint one of his sons to be Israel's future King and replace Saul. Samuel's first choice was Eliab, but look what happened.
1 Samuel 16:6,7 - (English Standard Version)
[6]"When they came, he looked on Eliab and thought, 'Surely the LORD's anointed is before him'[7] "But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not look at his appearance or the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."
It's not a Tuffy to figure out the difference between the bigotry of a man's invention and the truth of how Almighty God actually views things. There have been many twisted beliefs that have for centuries had it's backers try to twist and slant the scriptures to fit their own perverted desires. For the reduced time left, all have the "freedom" as your username plainly states to believe as they so wish.
This is false. The modern term or phraze "ethnic cleansing" does not apply to Yahweh/Jehovah who commanded the Israellites to disposess the land of it's false religious inhabitants. There was also provision in the Law of Moses for the alien resident (non-Israelite) who wished to reside among God's people Israel. They had to worship only the God of Abraham and abide by the Law of Moses. A benefit of erraticating the inhabitants of the land would be to mainly destroy false religious ideas and gods out of Israel and keep their worship to God clean and pure. They also did'nt erraticate all those nations. An example was the Gibeonites with whom they made a covenant with. They heard what the God of Israel had done for them in Egypt and wanted no conflict with them. Hence they became as servants to Israel, got circumcised and worshipped the true God of Israel.
Your "Ethnic Cleansing" belief is based on modern ideas and apparently has many adherents in the last few centuries. Especially religious ones as history has proven. But this has nothing to do with the God who authored the Holy Bible.
Again, Israel was commanded to disposess the demon worshipping inhabitants of the land. But interestingly God did most of the fighting for them in many cases as is stated in verse 18 of Deut chapter 7. As long as the Israelites were faithful, as stated , he would come to their rescue and protect them. However, if they proved unfaithful as they did on many occasions, then he allowed the surrounding nations to overrun them.
Verse 16 of Deut Chapter 7 also states the reason for removing the inhabitants. False worship had to be irraticated. But all of this was hardly God's order of "Ethnic Cleansing". When the Israelites left Egypt, the scriptures state that a vast mixed company came with them. No doubt Egyptians, Ethiopians and whoever else saw the miracles Yahweh performed against Pharaoh and became believers in the God of Abraham. They became prosyletes. Again there was provision made in the Mosaic Law for non Hebrews or non Israelites who were of another national origin but wanted to dwell in the land of Israel. So a Proselyte was one who converted to Judaism and became a worshipper of Israel's God Yahweh or Jehovah and was also obligated to become circumcised and keep the Law.
Exodus 12:48,49 - Leviticus 19:33,34 - Lev 24:22 - Gal 5:3
Here also is where God did the choosing of the the people of Israel over others. Why???? Because they were Abraham's descendants. So the Israelites did not choose themselves as God's chosen ones. Had Abraham been Chinese or African, then God would have chosen them because they would have been Abraham's descendants. So there was no racial preference going on here which would justify any modern day movement or even 19th century movement of your "Ethnic Cleansing". I'm sure the very thought of the possibility of Abraham being an African sends shutters down the spine of many a white ethnic background Eurpoean religious folk. God does'nt view humans the way humans view humans. He created ALL equal and with variety as he had intended.
Here's a beautiful example of God's seeing a man differently from the way imperfect humans view and judge others. This is when Samuel is sent by God to the house of Jesse to anoint one of his sons to be Israel's future King and replace Saul. Samuel's first choice was Eliab, but look what happened.
1 Samuel 16:6,7 - (English Standard Version)
[6]"When they came, he looked on Eliab and thought, 'Surely the LORD's anointed is before him'[7] "But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not look at his appearance or the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."
It's not a Tuffy to figure out the difference between the bigotry of a man's invention and the truth of how Almighty God actually views things. There have been many twisted beliefs that have for centuries had it's backers try to twist and slant the scriptures to fit their own perverted desires. For the reduced time left, all have the "freedom" as your username plainly states to believe as they so wish.
That's a very well thought out post, i'm glad that you were able to present your thoughts as you did, and i agree with you.
The Book of Mormon in another gospel. The scripture you presented contradicts Paul's teaching. All your teachings are contradictory. Paul says you are accursed.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
My rebuke of the Mormon Church might be uncomfortable to you, but your "bashing" of Christ and the idea that God is just an exalted man has led Mormon leaders to proclaim a doctrine about the un-virgin birth of Christ which is very shocking indeed. To you I may seem condescending, but what your church says about the Holy Spirit is very disturbing.
Brigham Young once stated: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).
Remember, your prophets and your books contradict each other as well as the Holy Scriptures.
Also remember, from our past study, Your scripture is forever changing.
"I would like to say something about the new revelation... 'You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such? And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet... all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more. ("All Are Alike Unto God," by Apostle Bruce R. McConkie of the Council of the Twelve, pp. 1-2)
Why haven't your so called Apostles translated the bible "correctly" for us in the past from when the Mormon Church was founded till now. If they are true prophets, this could have been done, easily. After all, it was Apostles that gave us the scriptures of the New Testament and they preached the Old with understanding. It hasn't been done because it is more convenient to just say it isn't translated properly. Gives you an "out" every-time.
Joseph Fielding Smith denied that the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that Christ was begotten by the Holy Ghost:
"They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19).
Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., said: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). The late President Joseph Fielding Smith declared: "Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.18).
"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (p.742).
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explains also:
"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).
"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (p.742).
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
Now many of your leaders spoke that Christ was conceived of God in a physical way, by God who was a man. Why is that. They contradict the Book of Mormon as well, stating the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with it. There is much more Mormon doctrine on the matter, but there is a question here JNHarris. Why would your leaders teach this when it opposes the Holy Scriptures, and also your own writings such as in the Book Of Mormon. You appear to be a leader of some kind in the Mormon Church, so could you please answer that for your brethren. I've found out the answer myself, as I went deep into the rabbit hole.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today, and forever.
'You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such? And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet... all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more. ("All Are Alike Unto God," by Apostle Bruce R. McConkie of the Council of the Twelve, pp. 1-2)
Hiram,
I thank you for the opportunity to share the gospel of Jesus Christ as I understand it. Though you may reject everything I am about to share, and you certainly have the freedom to do so, perhaps there may be onlookers whom will benefit. You suppose me to be one of the leaders in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is true that nearly all of us have callings within Christ's church, the vast majority of which involve no financial renumeration. I do hold ordinary local callings but certainly am not any mighty leader or anything like that, not even here in the region where I live. I am an ordinary member of Christ's church, with a testimony burning in my heart that Jesus Christ is my Savior and my God.
The Gospel taught in Christ's church, the gospel to which Paul refers, starts with a proper understanding of the nature of God.
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." (Article of Faith #1, Pearl of Great Price)
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
(D&C 130:22)
"...The honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen." (Testimony of the Three Witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris)
The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost are three distinct and separate personages. One in purpose, thought, power and might... unified in every imaginable way, other than that they are three distinct personages, not one shape-shifting substance, therefore One God in the sense that they all act and function within the same goal, might and purpose (similar to the oneness expected in marriage) but still three separate and distinct personages.
Luke is clear in teaching that though "One" in purpose, thus "One God" the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate and distinct personages. "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:21-22).
Note, the three members of the Godhead are in three separate locations at this point. Furthermore, God the Father proclaims the divine Sonship of Jesus Christ. He makes it clear that Christ is His Son (not the Son of the Holy Ghost whom was descended upon Christ... not at that point up in Heaven).
It is true that the Holy Ghost was necessary for Christ to be the Only Begotten Son of the Father... for without the sanctifying and purifying power of the Holy Ghost... no man or woman can be in the presence of God and survive, therefore Matthew 1:18 refers to Christ as "the child of the Holy Ghost." Luke further clarified, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Note, first, the Holy Ghost was present, otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to live through the power of the Highest (the Father) which subsequently "overshadow(ed)" her according to this passage. Jesus Christ is our link back to our Father in Heaven, redeeming us from our fallen state. He is the Only Begotten Son of God in the Flesh (John 3:16). Mary was indeed a virgin, for she had known not "a man." (Luke 1:34). Though making clear that Christ is the Son of the Eternal Father, "The Highest," and that such a creation wouldn't have been possible without the power of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures do not expound upon this subject much further than this.
Regarding the "Oneness" of God, Christ prayed that the same unity and oneness He possesses with the Father, we would also possess. This is what we believe in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be the doctrine of "exaltation" (becoming like our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ).
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father , art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us... And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one... that they may be made perfect in one..." (John 17:21-23)
The nature of God is clearly taught from the earliest pages of the Bible. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.." (Genesis 1:26-27)
The Hebrew word for God in these passages is Elohim, the plural form of God. Notice, God is speaking to at least one companion. Also, man is formed in "his image".. Or the image of the plural form of God, "Elohim"... male AND female. What are the implications of this? I believe them to be profound!
In Genesis 5:1-2 we see these truths restated. ".. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam..." Again, I find it interesting that in the passage, Adam and Eve, our primordial parents are both referred to by the singular title of Adam. What are the implications?
Adam was indeed made in the image of God, as the Bible clearly teaches. Nowhere else do we read of one being created in the image of God, other than Jesus Christ Himself. "God... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person..." (Hebrews 1:1-3).
Jesus Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the Flesh. "God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son..." (John 3:16).
Some have quoted Brigham Young as stating that Adam was God... I believe many of President Young’s quotes to be taken out of context, misunderstood, or misrecorded in the first place. If he ever did state anything of this sort... I believe it to have been in reference to Adam being created in the image of God (mind you, at that point, not as a mortal as Adam was created immortal), as Jesus Christ was later created in this same image (though now created in mortal form). Paul speaks of this... "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.... The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from Heaven... And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.." (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).
It is interesting that Paul refers to Christ here as "the last Adam." Clearly, Adam, created in the image of God, fell. According to the Justice of God, there had to be One, created in His express image, to reverse that Fall... even Jesus Christ. Paul understood and taught this doctrine, though perhaps it was misunderstood by some of his day as well. As Jesus Christ was created in the express image of the Father and has authority to act as the Father, he is the Father and the Son, even though he is a separate personage. He is therefore God, as is His Father.
God isn’t "just an exalted man" as you have stated. Rather, the Bible teaches that men are fallen gods. As the psalmist stated, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Psalms 82:6). The psalmist here is not using the term gods in terms of the title of the One whom is the creator of the universe. Rather, he is using it to refer to those whom are His children... of the same "race." Luke goes so far as to call Adam the "son of God" (Luke 3:38) even though it is clear that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the Flesh.
Lorenzo Snow once stated, "As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become."
Jesus stated, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19).
What are the implications of this verse... The Son was born a mortal, even though already God... he was "made Flesh." He also later died and was resurrected. According to the Bible, Jesus Christ is now resides in a resurrected perfected tabernacle, one of perfected "flesh and bone." If he only does that which he seeth the Father do, the Father must also therefore have a tabernacle of perfected flesh and bone. Of course, such is taught from the earliest pages of the Bible. Adam, prior to being mortal, was created of the dust of an immortal earth, in the image of His Immortal God.
Again, so much of this comes down to an understanding of the nature of the Godhead. This is reiterated in the account of Stephen as he was being stoned, "Bu he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glorly of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56). Note, there were two personages, Christ on the right HAND of God the Father. The members of the Godhead are one in purpose, power, authority, even image, but are separate and distinct personages, not one shape-shifting substance.
Christ invites us to this same path of perfection and oneness with the Father that he has followed. To those in the middle east, he stated during His mortality, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48). The term perfect here in the original Greek means "complete" or whole. After His resurrection, Christ stated to the Nephites on the American Continent, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." (3 Nephi 12:48). Christ was always without sin and therefore always perfect in that sense. However, after His resurrection he was "perfect" in the sense of being "complete" as His Father is complete. He had a glorified body of flesh and bone, as His Father has, the very immortal image of which after Adam was originally immortally created.
Truly, "the course of the Lord is one eternal round." (1 Nephi 10:19). Christ has promised, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21). He invites us to follow Him and to know Him.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent." (John 17:3).
God is the only true God. Jesus is His Son. We are invited to become One with Him, even as Jesus Christ is One with Him, we are invited to be One with the only true God, even our Eternal Father. Such is only possible through Jesus Christ, whom is the "way, the truth and the light."
This is the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ... is all centers 100% in the person and glorification of Jesus Christ. Only as we become One with him through his Gospel plan, does this become reality. Christ taught faith, repentance, baptism and the reception of the Holy Ghost... all of these are necessary to be united and joined to Jesus Christ and to be fully redeemed form all of the effects of sin and the Fall.
I love and adore Jesus Christ. I know him to be my Savior and my God. I hope to inherit someday what he has promised, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:16-18).
This is indeed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no other gospel. The personage of Jesus Christ IS the Very Gospel. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed true. I leave this with you in Jesus’ name, amen.
Points of Clarification/Correction to my prior post:
[quote]Adam was indeed made in the image of God, as the Bible clearly teaches. Nowhere else do we read of one being created in the image of God, other than Jesus Christ Himself. "God... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person..." (Hebrews 1:1-3). [quote]
1 Cor 11:7 talks of man being in the image and glory of God. This passage refers to more than just Adam. Ether 3:15 also refers to the brother of Jared being in the image of God.
Quote:
God isn’t "just an exalted man" as you have stated. Rather, the Bible teaches that men are fallen gods. As the psalmist stated, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Psalms 82:6). The psalmist here is not using the term gods in terms of the title of the One whom is the creator of the universe. Rather, he is using it to refer to those whom are His children... of the same "race." Luke goes so far as to call Adam the "son of God" (Luke 3:38) even though it is clear that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the Flesh.
Lest one interpret my above statement to say that I am saying God the Father is not an exalted man, that is not what I'm saying. Joseph Smith clearly taught that He was. However, to refer to him as "just an exalted man" certainly is incorrect.
Totally unblical. Are they out of their minds? Jesus was with the Father in the beginning. Jesus is God the son. The holy trinity is the ONLY God. We are not Gods and never will be. Jesus fulfilled everything. On the cross he said "IT IS FINISHED!" The bible can never be changed.
Go to freenewtestament.com to get a free bible and give your heart to Jesus, become a Christian and FOLLOW Jesus's word.
Hmmm..... you believe like many, but sadly as a group of men sat around a table and made an agreement on what the definition of God should be. As each had their own idea, they had to compromise (each changing a little so as they can enter into an agreement)
Me? I'm with those who don't allow a group of men decide for me who the Lord is and who God is and who the Holy Spirit is. I listen to the Lord, not man.
Do the research and you'll find the error in the ways of man, especially those men who picked and chose what God is supposed to be.
Well I personally believe God would be greatly offended at someone pointing the racism finger at him. But I'm glad you agree that it's a man made product out of ignorance. I believe most early European Christians were ignorant when they went out and tried to conquer other cultures and felt they were superior somehow because they had guns and the natives bows & arrows. Whatever.
I've had Mormon missionaries use the same words or phrazes you used when asked about the church's history on the race issue, "trivial" & "irrelevant". Must be some auto response thing they've been told to use when they are asked these questions. No doubt it's learned in the missionary training education or schooling before they actually go out in the work.
Originally when I spoke about it, it was already a subject in progress and I was only responding to others.
Sorry to disappoint you, but it is entirely coincidental that we both use the terms trivial and irrelevant. I think you've completely missed the point of my earlier post anyway. Read the posts between this one and your post that I am replying to. It's far too much to summarize, but it certainly seems this thread, like many religious threads, are overrun with debates about trivial matters and obscure points of doctrine. I am simply drawing a comparison between these debates and the Pharisess. I did not bring up race, you did, and I would include that debate within the scope of the larger, trivial debate.
Sorry to disappoint you, but it is entirely coincidental that we both use the terms trivial and irrelevant. I think you've completely missed the point of my earlier post anyway. Read the posts between this one and your post that I am replying to. It's far too much to summarize, but it certainly seems this thread, like many religious threads, are overrun with debates about trivial matters and obscure points of doctrine. I am simply drawing a comparison between these debates and the Pharisess. I did not bring up race, you did, and I would include that debate within the scope of the larger, trivial debate.
No I did'nt bring up the race issue. It was already here when I posted. If your belief that all of these major monumental issues are trivial, then good for you. That would seem to be the Church's approach to deflecting it's failures as well. For the time that is left, you are free to believe that God was the original racist, but later changed his mind in the interest of politics in there in the United States, just like God apparently did in dumping polygamy so the his people's land could become a state and be part of the USA.
Again, if you find the past God Ordained Racism Doctrine to be trivial or irrelevant , then more power to you.
No I did'nt bring up the race issue. It was already here when I posted. If your belief that all of these major monumental issues are trivial, then good for you. That would seem to be the Church's approach to deflecting it's failures as well. For the time that is left, you are free to believe that God was the original racist, but later changed his mind in the interest of politics in there in the United States, just like God apparently did in dumping polygamy so the his people's land could become a state and be part of the USA.
Again, if you find the past God Ordained Racism Doctrine to be trivial or irrelevant , then more power to you.
Blue Pacific,
You obviously believe in equity and justice, as do I. Doubtless, we have many values in common. However, I can't help but think that your views in this matter are unfairly biased.
1) Regarding your Charges of Racism within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
I do believe that in 1978, the Lord gave a revelation to the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the priesthood to be given to all worthy males regardless of descent.
Before being quick to judge the LDS leaders prior to that, one must ask oneself... why was the Aaronic priesthood restricted amongst the Tribes of Israel in OT times only to those from the lineage of Levi? It is true that even "foreigners" were allowed to convert to Judaism, but they like others outside of the tribe of Levi weren't allowed to hold the priesthood. Why the discrimination for thousands of years? (Numbers 18:6-7). If "strangers" even tried to approach the priests in their duties, they were to be "put to death." (Numbers 18:6-7). Why also was the gospel not preached to those outside of the House of Israel until Peter received a revelation to go to the Gentiles? (Acts 10:1-33). Even Jesus Christ Himself, God, though He made a few exceptions, did not preach or share his message to those outside of the House of Israel while He was alive (Matt 15:21-28). Why? Certainly all are alike unto God. However, there must be "more to the story" in all of these instances. I believe there also to be much "more to the story" in the case of the priesthood being witheld from those of African Americen descent until 1978 (although there were a few exceptions to this in the early days of the church.). I don't pretend to know what all of the reasons were.
Before you rush to accuse The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of racism, keep in mind that they were driven out of Missouri in the middle of winter, and many of them "exterminated" under the "extermination order" of Governor Boggs in the mid-1800's, largely due to their strong stance against slavery in a pro-slavery region. Also, the priesthood was never restricted from Native Americans, Asians, or others that had "dark skin" but which were not of African descent.
2) Regarding your charges that polygamy was "dumped so his people's land could become a state and be part of the USA" This is just wrong. It is true that the Utah territory was admitted to the United States after plural marriages were stopped. However, the marriages were stopped largely to halt intense persecution against the LDS peoples by the United States of America (the very country the LDS people were driven out of, molested by and killed... their constitutional rights not being protected or upheld.) The Latter-day Saints were driven from Missouri, at least in large part due to their anti-slavery stance. They were later driven, again in the dead of winter, from the United States primarily due to their beliefs in God... which were different than the common man-made creeds of the day ... many of which are still common place amongst Christians. At the time of being driven from the U.S., plural marriage was not a common practice amongst them. Thousands of them died on their trek west. Latter-day Saints are patriotic. We support our country. We sustain the constitution and view it as an inspired document. However, make no mistake about it, the leaders of the Unites States from that era have blood on their hands. If any admittance to the Union was desired, it was in large part to have representation in Congress and to facilitate protections of their liberties. The seizure of property as well as the imprisonment of many of the early LDS leaders conducted by the USA I view to have been highly unconstitutional, as were the restrictions on their religious liberties.
You may find the following informative:
"The Bible indicates that Abraham, Jacob, and others of the Lord’s servants had multiple wives (see Genesis 16:1-3; 29:23-30; 30;4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1-2). Joseph Smith asked God why He had permitted this practice and was told that God had commanded it for specific purposes. One reason given by the Lord for plural marriage is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: “If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife]” (Jacob 2:30; see also v. 27).
"After God revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to Joseph Smith in 1831 and commanded him to live it, the Prophet, over a period of years, cautiously taught the doctrine to some close associates. Eventually, he and a small number of Church leaders entered into plural marriages in the early years of the Church. Those who practiced plural marriage at that time, both male and female, experienced a significant trial of their faith. The practice was so foreign to them that they needed and received personal inspiration from God to help them obey the commandment.
When the Saints moved west under the direction of Brigham Young, more Latter-day Saints entered into plural marriages.
"Influenced by rumors and exaggerated reports, the United States Congress, beginning in 1862, enacted a series of laws against polygamy that became increasingly harsh. By the 1880s many Latter-day Saint men were imprisoned or went into hiding.
"In 1889 in the face of increasing hardships and the threat of government confiscation of Church property, including temples, Wilford Woodruff, President of the Church at the time, prayed for guidance. He was inspired to issue a document that officially ended the sanction of plural marriage by the Church. The document, called the Manifesto, was accepted by Church members in a general conference held in October 1890 and is published in the Doctrine and Covenants as Official Declaration 1 (see also “Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto” following Official Declaration 1).
"Just as the practice of plural marriage among the Latter-day Saints began gradually, the ending of the practice after the Manifesto was also gradual. Some plural marriages were performed after the Manifesto, particularly in Mexico and Canada. In 1904, President Joseph F. Smith called for a vote from the Church membership that all post-Manifesto plural marriages be prohibited worldwide.
"More recently, President Gordon B. Hinckley has reiterated that plural marriage is “against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows [the practice of a man having more than one wife], the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage” ("What Are People Asking about Us?" Ensign, Nov. 1998, 72).
"Groups who teach polygamy today are not part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Originally Posted by bluepacific
1 Samuel 16:6,7 - (English Standard Version)
[6]"When they came, he looked on Eliab and thought, 'Surely the LORD's anointed is before him'[7] "But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not look at his appearance or the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."
It's not a Tuffy to figure out the difference between the bigotry of a man's invention and the truth of how Almighty God actually views things. There have been many twisted beliefs that have for centuries had it's backers try to twist and slant the scriptures to fit their own perverted desires. For the reduced time left, all have the "freedom" as your username plainly states to believe as they so wish.
JNHarris Did Joseph Smith and other Mormon Presidents and Prophets look at the appearance of men with color?
Brigham Young stated:
“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)
So according to Mormonism, black skin and flat noses are not good. All the way from the beginning of time until 1978. Now all of a sudden this all changes. Only in the Mormon world. NOT in the spiritual world of God.
Quote:
JNHarris I do believe that in 1978, the Lord gave a revelation to the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the priesthood to be given to all worthy males regardless of descent.
I believe there also to be much "more to the story" in the case of the priesthood being witheld from those of African Americen descent until 1978 (although there were a few exceptions to this in the early days of the church.). I don't pretend to know what all of the reasons were.
“Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, THEIR INTELLIGENCE STUNTED, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157)
What you "believe" JNHarris, and what the scripture states are two totally different messages.
Mormons have even capitalized their doctrine above. They are racist. Sure, they may have changed now. But, right from the beginning of time from the times of Cain to 1978, they preached that colored people were inferior, yet God, said not to judge the appearance. Do not believe this false religion of Mormonism, it is a different Gospel. Here again is proof of the ever changing gospel of Mormonism.
Quote:
JNHarris Before you rush to accuse The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of racism, keep in mind that they were driven out of Missouri in the middle of winter, and many of them "exterminated" under the "extermination order" of Governor Boggs in the mid-1800's, largely due to their strong stance against slavery in a pro-slavery region.
Above is typical. The "group" would have you feel "guilt" to persuade your view on truth. Guilt and fear is what they use, it is one of their tools, and it happens all the time in these type of "religions". Notice also, nothing above is documented here. Is this an excuse JNHarris? Are you trying to seek pity, as a means to justify the persecution that YOUR Church has done to men of darker skin color? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm picking on you now. I feel guilty.
Quote:
JNharris One reason given by the Lord for plural marriage is mentioned in the Book of Mormon:
No JNHarris, we do not go to the book of Mormon to test the spirit for the same reason we do not go to the Koran, or Book of Scientology. But to the word of God. The inspired prophets and apostles, who spoke under the influence of the Holy Spirit. These men did not lie.
Are all of Brigham Young's sermons considered scripture and official LDS doctrine?
"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good a scripture" (Journa1 of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95; also see vol. 13, p. 264).
Brigham Young: Death to inter-racial couples:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)
More capitalized Mormon Doctrine that is apparently no longer of value. Spoken by a true Mormon Prophet.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
As we can see in the above scripture, the "faith" was delivered "once for all". It does not need to be delivered a second time. Also it was delivered to the "saints", not the Mormons. Plus, a "bondservant" of Jesus Christ delivered it. Not a Mormon. Jude 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
for the faith
New Testament Greek Definition:
4102 pistis {pis'-tis}) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and
divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and
holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
JNHarris Did Joseph Smith and other Mormon Presidents and Prophets look at the appearance of men with color?
Brigham Young stated:
“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)
So according to Mormonism, black skin and flat noses are not good. All the way from the beginning of time until 1978. Now all of a sudden this all changes. Only in the Mormon world. NOT in the spiritual world of God.
“Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, THEIR INTELLIGENCE STUNTED, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157)
What you "believe" JNHarris, and what the scripture states are two totally different messages.
Mormons have even capitalized their doctrine above. They are racist. Sure, they may have changed now. But, right from the beginning of time from the times of Cain to 1978, they preached that colored people were inferior, yet God, said not to judge the appearance. Do not believe this false religion of Mormonism, it is a different Gospel. Here again is proof of the ever changing gospel of Mormonism.
Above is typical. The "group" would have you feel "guilt" to persuade your view on truth. Guilt and fear is what they use, it is one of their tools, and it happens all the time in these type of "religions". Notice also, nothing above is documented here. Is this an excuse JNHarris? Are you trying to seek pity, as a means to justify the persecution that YOUR Church has done to men of darker skin color? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm picking on you now. I feel guilty.
No JNHarris, we do not go to the book of Mormon to test the spirit for the same reason we do not go to the Koran, or Book of Scientology. But to the word of God. The inspired prophets and apostles, who spoke under the influence of the Holy Spirit. These men did not lie.
Are all of Brigham Young's sermons considered scripture and official LDS doctrine?
"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good a scripture" (Journa1 of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95; also see vol. 13, p. 264).
Brigham Young: Death to inter-racial couples:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)
More capitalized Mormon Doctrine that is apparently no longer of value. Spoken by a true Mormon Prophet.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
As we can see in the above scripture, the "faith" was delivered "once for all". It does not need to be delivered a second time. Also it was delivered to the "saints", not the Mormons. Plus, a "bondservant" of Jesus Christ delivered it. Not a Mormon. Jude 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
for the faith
New Testament Greek Definition:
4102 pistis {pis'-tis}) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and
divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and
holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
Hiram,
Clearly, some of the prophets of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, particularly Brigham Young, did look on color or "the external appearance." They, like Samuel of old, were not immune from the cultural biases in which they grew up. Samuel also looked on the external appearance... it was the Lord who didn't. (1 Samuel 16:6-7).
I believe the Lord grants His truth to His children on earth line upon line and precept upon precept as they are ready and prepared to receive it. Thus we see that there was a Law of Moses before the Law of Christ. Thus we see that a reformation of falsehoods that had crept into Christianity happened before a restoration of truth that had been lost. The restoration of priesthood happened to some before to all. Apparantely, the world, perhaps even the Church members themselves were not yet prepared and ready to receive the blessings that the Lord desired to give to all until 1978.
Regarding your references, I do not endorse them as scripture, nor has The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever done so. If you wish to use what has been accepted and sustained by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as scriptural canon as revealed through Brigham Young, see D&C 136. It has to do with the exodus of the Latter-day Saints to the Intermountain west. Brigham Young was raised up to help preserve the Latter-day Saints in the early days of Christ's church during a period of some of the darkest bigotry and hatred that this country has been exposed to. Though perhaps he was not immune to all of these effects, for the stewarship he managed, I believe the Prophet Brigham Young will be eternally blessed.
You are adept at casting stones, but you still have not answered questions from my prior post. Why were all but the Levites restricted from the priesthood of Aaron for thousands of years according to the Bible? Why this discrimination? Why when Jesus Christ Himself, God, was mortal, did He not generally preach to those that were not Israelites, ignoring them and even referring to them as "dogs" (Matthew 15:21- 28). All are alike unto God. Why then this apparent discrepency?
You appear to be largely filled with the same class of hate that you accuse many others of possessing. However, perhaps you are not to be blamed. You are doubtless largely a product of the culture, religious and otherwise, within which you have been raised and exposed. I do believe God to love all of His children, you and I included. I believe God will cleanse you of the feelings of hatred which you appear to possess if you ask Him to... for he loves Latter-day Saint Christians just as much as other types of Christians... and just as much as non-Christians as well. "All are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26: 33)
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