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Which scriptural context are you referring to DOTL?
Uh....all of it. You cannot prove or your preterist friends that anything has already happened in reference to Biblical end times prophecy. I'm still waiting for you and preterist to explain away the scriptures I quoted earlier. Yawn.....I'm too tired to wait around until Jesus comes back.
Uh....all of it. You cannot prove or your preterist friends that anything has already happened in reference to Biblical end times prophecy. I'm still waiting for you and preterist to explain away the scriptures I quoted earlier. Yawn.....I'm too tired to wait around until Jesus comes back.
Peace out.
Let's clarify something, DOTL. I do NOT believe that Jesus is coming back or ever came back so I am not biased to trying to twist, bend or manipulate the scriptures to suit my fancy. I just take them for what they are worth.
Now Preterist is the one you need to ask for proof that those "signs" were fulfilled in Jesus' generation or the one after him.
Well, it's good to see that not everyone is caught up in the "left behind" hype.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
To a casual reader, it would appear obvious that such cataclysmic events as described here have not yet occurred, or we would not be here to think about it. The sun still shines, and the moon is still up there in the sky. What the serious student of the Bible should realize, however, is that these images have been used before in the scriptures. This is still a prophecy being uttered by Jesus and he is using symbols rather than literal descriptions. It is very easy to forget this concept since it is not something we do in our own culture, but every time a prophecy is pronounced in the Bible, symbolic language is used.
Over and over in the Old Testament, we find these same symbols being used to describe the downfall of political authorities and the spiritual darkness that settled over Israel when they sinned against God. For example, in Ezekiel 32:7-8, God is prophesying through Ezekiel “the downfall of Egypt in 572 B.C. when he says to the Pharaoh:
“When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land, declares the Sovereign Lord.”[NIV]
In Isaiah 5:30 and 13:10, he prophecies of the attack of the Assyrians and the destruction of Babylon:
“And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.”
“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”
In Joel 2:10, the same symbols are used in looking forward to the events of AD. 70:
“The earth shall quake before them: the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.”
and in Amos 8:9, God tells how he will send Israel into captivity:
“And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.”
So, when we hear Jesus speaking his prophecy in the New Testament, we should not be surprised at the types of imagery he uses in describing the upcoming destruction events concerning the Jews. These were the same peoples under the same type of conditions (disobeying God), and suffering the same kind of fate as before, except that this time their punishment was final.
The sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in the Prophecy refers to the religious authorities (in this case the Jewish leaders who rebelled against Christ and led the people to persecute Christians) who were being utterly destroyed by God. These people are also the “powers of heaven” who were being shaken. Certainly, God’s Heaven is and never will be subject to shaking of its authority, Power, or substance. This “heaven” was something else. It was a symbol for the religious authorities whose authority had been removed.
Notice now, the timing of all these events and the coming of the Son of Man. The first thing in Matt. 24:29 is:
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days….”
Which days were these? The days Jesus has been warning the disciples about throughout Matthew 24 – the upcoming days of the war. Then, when was this coming to occur? It would be immediately after the terrors and “tribulations” of that war. It was the final act of the Roman army to destroy the Temple, the centerpiece of the Jewish religion and authority. They killed off the line of the High Priests and the caused the Jewish sacrifices to cease. God had promised to come against his people’s enemies. Here, indeed, was the coming of God, just as promised, to remove the Jewish “carcass” off the face of the earth and out of his people’s way. It was not a physical coming of Christ, but a spiritual coming through the physical tool of the pagan, Gentile Roman army. It was God’s vengeance on his and his people’s enemies in a very real and physical way.
Note that even within this prophecy passage, there is a specific reference to whom these prophesied events are going to happen. In verse 30, when God has come and the final vengeance is taken:
“…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn….”
Who were the tribes of the earth? Since the “sun” and “stars” were representing the Jewish authorities, then the “tribes of the earth” would be those people under their rule – obviously this refers to the 12 tribes of Israel. Why were they mourning? God had destroyed their land, their peoples, and their way of life. They were being truly punished for their sins. Then note that:
“…they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
This coming of Christ had to have occurred during those times, or the tribes of Israel could not have been witness to it as Jesus said they would be. Christ would be coming in the “clouds of heaven,” that is, it would be a spiritual coming, and it would be with power to accomplish the goal of vengeance against the enemies, and with great glory – the glory of victory and of righteousness. The Jewish “tribes” did indeed see this great coming of Christ, for it comprised their destruction.
Let us look for a moment at the phrase “tribulation of those days.” Many people are looking for a yet future time of persecutions and tribulations against Christians, based on a futurist interpretation of these prophecies, but there is no reason to look any further than the events of these times to find the tribulations that were prophesied by Jesus. Certainly, in the 40 some years that transpired between the cross and the final destruction of Judaism, there were in increasing frequency and severity persecutions made against the fledgling Christian community in Palestine and elsewhere. As we have indicated, most of this terrorism and suppression was at the hands of the Jews themselves, who saw in Christianity a sacrilegious and unacceptable offshoot “cult” that was stealing faithful Jews away from the orthodox beliefs.
The tribulations that Jesus was referring to in the Matthew 24 passage, however, were the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem as evidenced by all the other signs and symbols of the chapter. This was something to be avoided by the Christians who were in that place. They were to watch for the signs and get out fast when these terrible tribulations were about to begin. To get a sense of just how fearsome these times were for the Jews and anyone else caught up in Jerusalem at the time, we can turn to Josephus once again.
During the actual siege and battle actions of the years A.D. 67 - 70, the 3 1/2 year period of the Gentiles against the holy city, Josephus reported 1,100,000 people dead. The Roman historian Tacitus reported over 600,000 casualties. The large number of people involved is understandable when we realize that the walled city of Jerusalem was the “fortress” of the land of Judea, where everyone fled as a last resort to escape the advancing Roman armies. Also, very importantly, the initial Roman besiegement of Jerusalem came at the time of Passover. The city was packed with pilgrims for the Holy time. With both of these considerations, we see that essentially the majority of the Jewish nation was crammed into the great city when the Romans came and shut them up inside.
It was quite a terrible trap. The seeming safe refuge of Jerusalem had turned into a nasty snare for all those inside. As we read earlier, the Romans built an earthwork “berm” or mound-like wall completely around the city along with trenches, to make certain that no One could escape their retribution. As people would try to escape, the Romans built hundreds upon hundreds of crucifixes on top of the berms and hung the escapees as object lessons to the people inside.
At first, the city held out fairly well, although warring factions within the Jewish community were causing almost as much trouble to each other as the Romans outside were, especially in setting on fire their own city’s essential grain stores.
Making a mistake is not a sin, but not willing to learn from your mistakes is a 'sin'. Otherwise the simple act of being born already is a sin, simply because people are not born all-knowing.
Only all-knowing beings are without sin, simply because an omniscient being already knows everything therefore does not need to learn (by making mistakes), thus cannot sin.
To create heaven on earth you only need to acknowledge that you have to learn from your mistakes. Once people realise that you have to learn from your past ‘sins’ in order to learn from your mistakes, making a mistake cannot be considered a sin.
Only refusing to learn from your mistakes will be considered a sin. So if learning from your sins makes it possible to create a paradise on earth the whole concept of rapture becomes irrelevant.
Well, it's good to see that not everyone is caught up in the "left behind" hype.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
To a casual reader, it would appear obvious that such cataclysmic events as described here have not yet occurred, or we would not be here to think about it. The sun still shines, and the moon is still up there in the sky. What the serious student of the Bible should realize, however, is that these images have been used before in the scriptures. This is still a prophecy being uttered by Jesus and he is using symbols rather than literal descriptions. It is very easy to forget this concept since it is not something we do in our own culture, but every time a prophecy is pronounced in the Bible, symbolic language is used.
Over and over in the Old Testament, we find these same symbols being used to describe the downfall of political authorities and the spiritual darkness that settled over Israel when they sinned against God. For example, in Ezekiel 32:7-8, God is prophesying through Ezekiel “the downfall of Egypt in 572 B.C. when he says to the Pharaoh:
“When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land, declares the Sovereign Lord.”[NIV]
In Isaiah 5:30 and 13:10, he prophecies of the attack of the Assyrians and the destruction of Babylon:
“And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.”
“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”
In Joel 2:10, the same symbols are used in looking forward to the events of AD. 70:
“The earth shall quake before them: the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.”
and in Amos 8:9, God tells how he will send Israel into captivity:
“And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.”
So, when we hear Jesus speaking his prophecy in the New Testament, we should not be surprised at the types of imagery he uses in describing the upcoming destruction events concerning the Jews. These were the same peoples under the same type of conditions (disobeying God), and suffering the same kind of fate as before, except that this time their punishment was final.
The sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling in the Prophecy refers to the religious authorities (in this case the Jewish leaders who rebelled against Christ and led the people to persecute Christians) who were being utterly destroyed by God. These people are also the “powers of heaven” who were being shaken. Certainly, God’s Heaven is and never will be subject to shaking of its authority, Power, or substance. This “heaven” was something else. It was a symbol for the religious authorities whose authority had been removed.
Notice now, the timing of all these events and the coming of the Son of Man. The first thing in Matt. 24:29 is:
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days….”
Which days were these? The days Jesus has been warning the disciples about throughout Matthew 24 – the upcoming days of the war. Then, when was this coming to occur? It would be immediately after the terrors and “tribulations” of that war. It was the final act of the Roman army to destroy the Temple, the centerpiece of the Jewish religion and authority. They killed off the line of the High Priests and the caused the Jewish sacrifices to cease. God had promised to come against his people’s enemies. Here, indeed, was the coming of God, just as promised, to remove the Jewish “carcass” off the face of the earth and out of his people’s way. It was not a physical coming of Christ, but a spiritual coming through the physical tool of the pagan, Gentile Roman army. It was God’s vengeance on his and his people’s enemies in a very real and physical way.
Note that even within this prophecy passage, there is a specific reference to whom these prophesied events are going to happen. In verse 30, when God has come and the final vengeance is taken:
“…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn….”
Who were the tribes of the earth? Since the “sun” and “stars” were representing the Jewish authorities, then the “tribes of the earth” would be those people under their rule – obviously this refers to the 12 tribes of Israel. Why were they mourning? God had destroyed their land, their peoples, and their way of life. They were being truly punished for their sins. Then note that:
“…they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
This coming of Christ had to have occurred during those times, or the tribes of Israel could not have been witness to it as Jesus said they would be. Christ would be coming in the “clouds of heaven,” that is, it would be a spiritual coming, and it would be with power to accomplish the goal of vengeance against the enemies, and with great glory – the glory of victory and of righteousness. The Jewish “tribes” did indeed see this great coming of Christ, for it comprised their destruction.
Let us look for a moment at the phrase “tribulation of those days.” Many people are looking for a yet future time of persecutions and tribulations against Christians, based on a futurist interpretation of these prophecies, but there is no reason to look any further than the events of these times to find the tribulations that were prophesied by Jesus. Certainly, in the 40 some years that transpired between the cross and the final destruction of Judaism, there were in increasing frequency and severity persecutions made against the fledgling Christian community in Palestine and elsewhere. As we have indicated, most of this terrorism and suppression was at the hands of the Jews themselves, who saw in Christianity a sacrilegious and unacceptable offshoot “cult” that was stealing faithful Jews away from the orthodox beliefs.
The tribulations that Jesus was referring to in the Matthew 24 passage, however, were the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem as evidenced by all the other signs and symbols of the chapter. This was something to be avoided by the Christians who were in that place. They were to watch for the signs and get out fast when these terrible tribulations were about to begin. To get a sense of just how fearsome these times were for the Jews and anyone else caught up in Jerusalem at the time, we can turn to Josephus once again.
During the actual siege and battle actions of the years A.D. 67 - 70, the 3 1/2 year period of the Gentiles against the holy city, Josephus reported 1,100,000 people dead. The Roman historian Tacitus reported over 600,000 casualties. The large number of people involved is understandable when we realize that the walled city of Jerusalem was the “fortress” of the land of Judea, where everyone fled as a last resort to escape the advancing Roman armies. Also, very importantly, the initial Roman besiegement of Jerusalem came at the time of Passover. The city was packed with pilgrims for the Holy time. With both of these considerations, we see that essentially the majority of the Jewish nation was crammed into the great city when the Romans came and shut them up inside.
It was quite a terrible trap. The seeming safe refuge of Jerusalem had turned into a nasty snare for all those inside. As we read earlier, the Romans built an earthwork “berm” or mound-like wall completely around the city along with trenches, to make certain that no One could escape their retribution. As people would try to escape, the Romans built hundreds upon hundreds of crucifixes on top of the berms and hung the escapees as object lessons to the people inside.
At first, the city held out fairly well, although warring factions within the Jewish community were causing almost as much trouble to each other as the Romans outside were, especially in setting on fire their own city’s essential grain stores.
Something to think about.
blessings,
- Byron
Great post, Byron! Unfortunately, DOTL will probably only skim it, as he has admitted to only skimming mine, so he will miss the truths contained within.
The Bible states that God sent his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life. If we are living in accordance with God's word we will all be with him someday.
Great post, Byron! Unfortunately, DOTL will probably only skim it, as he has admitted to only skimming mine, so he will miss the truths contained within.
In Christ, Preterist
DOTL skimmed YOUR post, Preterist because you keep saying the same things that have no truth to them and prove nothing. BTW, you still haven't responded to my post. I have this poster blocked, so skimming is not even an option. There's really no need for you to even try to explain away what the Bible says about the destruction of the heaven and the earth, because that is undisputable. I suppose that's why you are skirting around it.
The Bible states that God sent his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should have everlasting life. If we are living in accordance with God's word we will all be with him someday.
Thank you....so simple yet folks want to make it so complicated.
“…they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
This coming of Christ had to have occurred during those times,
Firstborn, I agree with your post except for the above point. I do not believe that Jesus has returned.
To review some of the verses:
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
I agree that the above verses probably are referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Just one note: the "elect" in verse 22 is not referring to the Jews, rather the Christians who were in Jerusalem. History tells us that there was a sudden withdrawal of the army where they were able to escape.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
I believe that these verses would be referring to the time after this tribulation.. a period of time that could include the time we are living in right now.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I believe that these verses are referring to the end of time, which has not occurred yet. We are in the period of time "immediately after the tribulation". The sun being darkened and the moon not giving light etc, I agree that this probably is figurative of a great religious power falling, such as the Jewish authority.
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons....For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matthew 10:5-7, 23b
To make it any clearer I would have to bring the sun to earth.
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Yawn.....I'm too tired to wait around until Jesus comes back.
So if learning from your sins makes it possible to create a paradise on earth the whole concept of rapture becomes irrelevant.
