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Few wrong words are nothing to respect! If Jesus has already come (and He has just as He promised), we would still all be here. His coming does NOT bring the end of the world. His coming brought an end to an AGE--the Old Testament covenant age of Judaism.
Few wrong words are nothing to respect! If Jesus has already come (and He has just as He promised), we would still all be here. His coming does NOT bring the end of the world. His coming brought an end to an AGE--the Old Testament covenant age of Judaism.
Preterist
So what is the evidence or what do you point to (and why) that would tell us that Christ has already returned? Surely it's not just "because He said He would at a "certain" time to a "certain" audience, that proves that He did".
Few wrong words are nothing to respect! If Jesus has already come (and He has just as He promised), we would still all be here. His coming does NOT bring the end of the world. His coming brought an end to an AGE--the Old Testament covenant age of Judaism.
Preterist
Just because you think they are wrong, doesn't mean that they are. Jesus has not returned, because we ARE still here. Jesus' return (the rapture) will not bring the end of the world, true. It will bring the rise of the AntiChrist. People will pray for the end because of the horrors of the tribulation, but they must suffer through it because of their unwillingness to believe and heed the Holy Word of God. After the 7 year reign of the AntiChrist, then Jesus' 2nd coming will begin the destruction of the battle of Armageddon and the end will come.
The post below is one that I believe you need to read and ponder upon. It was posted by twinspin in another thread and I think it is exceptional in it's message to many here and their "unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words."
Originally posted by twin.spin in "it's more than a screenname."
Quote:
I don't know how spiritual mature she is. So I can't comment.
For me there are passages that I must remind myself especially after I read some of your posts concerning your logic on certian passages:
Remember, these verse are for me when I think of you...............
2 Thessalonians 3:15
Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
2 Timothy 2:14
Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish andstupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
Titus 3:10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
1 Timothy 2:2-4
"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words" that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions."
This is how your posts seem, that you have "an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words"
Freedom, thou doth be warned, for mine enemy thou are not.
Just because you think they are wrong, doesn't mean that they are. Jesus has not returned, because we ARE still here. Jesus' return (the rapture) will not bring the end of the world, true. It will bring the rise of the AntiChrist. People will pray for the end because of the horrors of the tribulation, but they must suffer through it because of their unwillingness to believe and heed the Holy Word of God. After the 7 year reign of the AntiChrist, then Jesus' 2nd coming will begin the destruction of the battle of Armageddon and the end will come.
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Yes, this is what the Bible teaches, I don't understand how anyone can believe that Jesus has returned.
Last edited by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA; 05-27-2008 at 12:20 PM..
Reason: spelling error
Yes, this is what the Bible teaches, I don't understand how anyone can believe that Jesus has returned.
You nor DOTL understand, because as I once did, you do not understand the nature of Christ's coming, the judgment, and the resurrection.
I would ask you this: Can you, on your own and without outside help, put together a Scriptural defense for your beliefs? There must be sound support for what we "believe." Before you can justifiably discount preterism and label it as heresy, you must first understand its biblical support. Many do not yet they criticize anyway.
As a new believer, I was taught pre-mil, pre-trib., dispensationalism. That was all I knew. I became well versed in all the events of the "end times"--the 1000-year reign, the anti-christ, the beast of Revelation, the resurrection, the great battle of Armageddon, and the burning up of the heavens and the earth. Maybe you're smarter than I am, but I was troubled by the fact that I really had to force and twist the Scriptures to coordinate all of these things, often grabbing verses from here and there to hold it all together. I decided one day to cast it all aside and start fresh. I wanted to know for myself without anyone's else input, what saith the Scriptures. It took me many years to study my way to preterism--in fact, I became a preterist before I even knew what that word meant!
Much of dispensationalism discount the sitz im leben of entire passages of the Scriptures. Taken out of context, verses are extremely difficult to understand correctly. The Book of Revelation especially becomes nothing but furtile ground for the worst speculation when it is not kept in its historical setting--pre-A.D. 70.
Christ's coming mentioned in Revelation 1:7 is misunderstood because it is taken out of its historical setting. His coming, then, is seen as visible because the verse says "every eye shall see Him." Taken out of context, it is easy to see how one might make that mistake. That verse is very, very Jewish. The tribes of the earth are mentioned, those who pierced Him are mentioned, the mourning speaks of that day when the Temple and city were destroyed (part of those things which were to take place SHORTLY because the time was then NEAR--Rev. 1:7). The verse deals with that generation. The "every eye" is not all inclusive so as to include every eye of the world. First of all, the "every eye" relates to that first-century generation. The context confines the "every." If my daughter goes to a school function and comes home and tells me, "everyone was there," she does not mean everyone in the whole world. The "every" is confined to her school setting!
The nature of Christ's coming is the same as all the "comings" in judgment clearly seen in the Jewish prophetic language. God "came" against the Egyptians (Eze. 32); God "came" against the Babylonians (Isa. 13); God "came" against Edom (Isa. 34), etc. He never came visibly and physically. That is the same way that Jesus "came" in A.D. 70. The Old Covenant system of Judaism with all of its types and shadows was made to vanish away and become obsolete (the old "heavens" and old "earth") See Heb. 8. The new "heavens" and new "earth" of the New Covenant were created in their place.
All those who waited in Hades (Luke 19) were resurrected. Living saints were given victory over the grave--no redeemed would ever go to Hades again--all go immediately into the presence of Christ. This is the resurrection and the judgment. Until that time, no final destination was given to the lost saints and the lost wicked. When Jesus came in A.D. 70 and destroyed that old dead system, the finally destination of the saved and lost was established. It is the same for all believers since that time--that is why Jesus could say that whoever dies yet shall he live and whoever lives shall never die. We were given victory over the grave at His coming in A.D. 70.
I know I have broken my own rule of giving adequate biblical support for my statements. I am very willing to do that for those who are interested. My purpose here was to simple lay out the skeleton. I know there are some who run away when my posts get too long!
The problem dispensationalists and other futurists will always have is not being able to be truly honest with the numerous time statements in the Scriptures.
As a new believer, I was taught pre-mil, pre-trib., dispensationalism. That was all I knew. I became well versed in all the events of the "end times"--the 1000-year reign, the anti-christ, the beast of Revelation, the resurrection, the great battle of Armageddon, and the burning up of the heavens and the earth. Maybe you're smarter than I am, but I was troubled by the fact that I really had to force and twist the Scriptures to coordinate all of these things, often grabbing verses from here and there to hold it all together. I decided one day to cast it all aside and start fresh. I wanted to know for myself without anyone's else input, what saith the Scriptures. It took me many years to study my way to preterism--in fact, I became a preterist before I even knew what that word meant!
Thank you for your post, Preterist... it explains very well what you believe.
As I've mentioned before, I agree with you that many points (such as ones mentioned in the above paragraph regarding Armageddon, 1000 yr reign, beast etc) have been sensationalized, incorrectly interpreted and blown way out of proportion.. taught as a coming and new event, when actually the prophecy has either been fulfilled, or has a spiritual and not literal meaning. That you realized this was, I believe, a major step in the right direction... but IMO, full preterism is too much of an overcorrection.
What about these verses talking about the ascension of Jesus?
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The disciples saw Jesus literally ascend up into the sky. The "two men" (angels) told them that Jesus would come back in the same way that they saw him leave, which to me would signify a literal return.
Quote:
The nature of Christ's coming is the same as all the "comings" in judgment clearly seen in the Jewish prophetic language. God "came" against the Egyptians (Eze. 32); God "came" against the Babylonians (Isa. 13); God "came" against Edom (Isa. 34), etc. He never came visibly and physically. That is the same way that Jesus "came" in A.D. 70. The Old Covenant system of Judaism with all of its types and shadows was made to vanish away and become obsolete (the old "heavens" and old "earth") See Heb. 8. The new "heavens" and new "earth" of the New Covenant were created in their place.
I agree that in the above verses, when God "came" against the enemies, He did not literally come physically. Yet each of the following verses, spoken by Jesus, talk about Him coming "in the clouds", specifically. The above verses are not nearly so specific in that manner..
Mt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
I read over Isaiah 34 and in no way would I interpret this literally... in fact, (just quick reading) I didn't even notice a portion that would be similar to Jesus' prophecy in the verses above.
Also, the following verses are very clear... quite unlike other verses containing "types and shadows".
1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
My 2 cents ... though it may not even be worth that much.
John Noe's books speak very well on this topic. One of them is titled: "The Left Behind Delusion".
I don't necessarily agree with John Noe in all of his conclusions. After I read the Left Behind Delusion, I had a lot of questions, so I took advantage of his e-mail address at the back of the book to enter into some correspondence with him.
We had a great little Q & A / debate session that went on for about a dozen or so e-mails. He was unable to address all of my questions, but he did pretty well.
Not sure I'm convinced that there will not be a return of Christ to this Earth, but I am pretty convinced that he did return in judgement in A.D. 70 and that there is no future tribulation, rapture, antichrist, etc.
Not sure of the exact scriptural reference, but we are informed that not one bit of the law would pass away until all things be fulfilled. When Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70, so was the temple and that was the end of all that went along with the temple practices. If all things were not fulfilled in A.D. 70, then all old practices of Jewish law should still be observed in the world ... which they are not.
The imminency statements all throughout the new testament are awfully hard for the futurists to ignore and "Preterist" has it right when he addresses the olivet discourse. The questions from the disciples are: "What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age". Jesus' response is unbroken and continuous. There is no indication that the end of the Jewish temple age and his return would be separated by some vast period of time.
As well, our initial premises can skew how we view the events of A.D. 70. If we come to the discussion with the unsubstantiated, preconceived notion that Christ's return means an end to mortal existence as we know it
on this planet, then it is easy to assume Christ has not returned. However, nowhere in biblical text are we informed that the cycles of birth, life, and physical death are set to end at some certain point in time.
When examining apocalyptic language in scripture, it is easy for many to confuse the literal-physical with the literal-spiritual with the figurative with the symbolic.
MHO.
Last edited by Fighting For Air; 05-27-2008 at 03:59 PM..
My 2 cents ... though it may not even be worth that much.
They're worth alot! Thanks for sharing.
Quote:
As well, our initial premises can skew how we view the events of A.D. 70. If we come to the discussion with the unsubstantiated, preconceived notion that Christ's return means an end to mortal existence as we know it on this planet, then it is easy to assume Christ has not returned.
True, but IMO only if we come to verses like I quoted in Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Thes 4:16-18 with a preconceived notion that these are past events, will we interpret them in that way. To me, to simply read these verses alone and assign them to a past, non-literal event would take somewhat of a stretch!
It's not only these verses though.. the whole tenor of the NT is about looking forward, preparing, being ready, and encouraging others to be ready for a time that is to come.
EDIT: I'd be interested in hearing the points wherein you disagreed with John Noe, or the points he was unable to address.. just for discussion. Haven't read the book.
Last edited by cg81; 05-27-2008 at 03:11 PM..
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