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Thanks for the post. I agree almost entirely with the bulk of your comments, and feel that you have proven my point rather convincingly.
One fundamentally important point to note, however, is that we are told - by inspiration - that when Jesus said "destroy this temple," He was not talking about the Jewish temple. According to the Holy Spirit, "he spake of the temple of his body" Here is the whole passage:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
This is a super important distinction, because the focal point is Jesus. It is about His fate and NOT the fate of the natural temple. Let the power of that sink in. This one point superbly demonstrates the difference between our theologies.
Those particular carnal minded Jews THOUGHT he was talking about the natural temple, but He was NOT. In fact, we are given post-fulfillment conformation of this fact in the following verse:
"When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said." (John 2:22)
Thus precisely identifies the carnal-minded affections, and the dramatic failure, of full preterist exegesis.
That system THINKS Jesus was ultimately talking about natural events regarding prophetic consummation, but He was NOT. And again, full preterism finds itself in exactly the same shoes as the first century Jews. Your application of Jesus' words to the natural temple demonstrates this quite well.
With Jesus focusing on Himself and His fate, yet the carnal minded Jews (and full preterists) focusing on the natural temple and its fate, are they not attempting to rob Jesus Christ of His glory (whether they realized it or not)? It is, in my estimation, a crass rejecton of Jesus' ministry... all for the sake of protecting their place and their systems.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mark 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself, and come down from the cross.
And so, with Jesus being in whom all fulness dwells, and the amen to all the promises of God, the focal point of all prophecy, and the self-professed telos and eschatos -- and so on and so forth -- what benefit is there in making the focal point of prophecy to acutally be a long-extinct building from a far flung corner of the world?
Could this be the reason why Christianity has flourished for 2,000 years - even conquering the most powerful nation in antiquity - with virtually no knowledge of AD70? Why now, after 2,000 years, does knowledge of this event so quickly take over one's whole way of life? Why do full preterists cover great distances to gain a single convert to AD70, yet don't focus nearly as much on gaining converts to Christ?? Trust me, that is a fair assessment, and you will know a tree by its fruits.
I surely hope you re-read your post a few more times with this in mind, because the broadening of your understanding of the coming of the son of man is much to be admired. In the past it seemed like you were dedicated to a unique coming of the son of man in AD70. I am glad to see that you find ALL THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS of His power and glory as likewise being a coming of Christ.
Now, this idea that it somehow "culminated in AD70" is an understandable attempt to show your allegiance to the system of full preterism by salvaging its AD70 focal point, but I strongly encourage you to let that go and follow Jesus into a deeper understanding of the significance of His temple.
By the way, Paul uses the temple with the same personal focus:
1 Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
1 Cor. 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
2 Cor. 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (a work which is still in progress and unfulfilled in AD70)
The point is, that there is no denying that the temple imagery means something... but it means "look unto Jesus, the author and finisher" and "the chief cornerstone." The cleansing of the temple is a prime example of how the temple is used as a type or a picture of Jesus' work in reforming His people in divine power and glory NOW. To say that a natural building 2,000 years ago fulflled all of this -- and was not simply a shadow -- is carnal-minded heresy.
Surely you can see this more clearly now. It certainly took me a long time to see ; after all, I'm a Gentile who needed a decade just to really catch up to the imagery with which a Jew would have been raised. So it is understandable that it takes time to lift our gaze from the schoolmaster which points to Christ... to Jesus Christ Himself.
Fulfill the promise of full preterism's learning curve by keeping the historical focus where it belongs.. as a mere collection of shadowy typology, which points to the continuing substance of Jesus Christ's prophetic fulfillment throughout all generations.
Colossians 3:2 "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."
2 Cor. 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. "
OnOurWay2MO: I am confused. Did I not answer you about this already?
I went into great detail to explain that the harlot is none other than that first-century Jerusalem and I provided OT passages in which this name was given to it. This is the same city whom Jesus pronounced guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" in Matthew 23. Jerusalem was a key city and a powerful city in the affairs of the Roman empire in that day. But her battles with Rome escalated to the point that she incurred its wrath and God used it to mete out His judgment upon her. The horrendous events of the Jewish Wars culminating in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem clearly fit the scenario of Rev. 17:16. The Roman leaders of that day indeed hated the harlot, Jerusalem, and the Jewish leadership. It was that Roman beast that was used of God to make her "desolate." This word, eremos (desolate), found in Revelation 17:16 is the same word found in Matthew 23:38. In Matthew 23:38, of course, we find that that desolation was to take place in that generation--upon those Jews upon whom Jesus pronounced the woes. It is also the very same word found in Matthew 24:15 of the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" that those disciples right there with Him were to see! It precedes the clear time statement by Jesus in verse 34--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place."
Again, Revelation 17 is "bookended" between chapters 1 and chapters 22 which confine the timing of these events to that which was to then SHORTLY take place because the time was then NEAR! (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). Within those confines is also the idea of that which was and is and is to come especially since Revelation 1:19 speaks of the things which were ABOUT TO (mello) come after these things! This expression has the same nearness that PreteristArchive insists on in Matthew 26:64 with the expression ap' arti!
I thought I explained most of this already, but here it is again. Also, there is no disconnect with 17 and 14, that is, only if one takes all of these events in a strictly chronological fashion. They both speak of the same event--the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70.
Preterist
Preterist
I responded back to you at post #517, and you did'nt answer my questions. I guess there is no discussing this when one person has Revelation in a box and one does not.
Thanks for the post. I agree almost entirely with the bulk of your comments, and feel that you have proven my point rather convincingly.
One fundamentally important point to note, however, is that we are told - by inspiration - that when Jesus said "destroy this temple," He was not talking about the Jewish temple. According to the Holy Spirit, "he spake of the temple of his body" Here is the whole passage:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
This is a super important distinction, because the focal point is Jesus. It is about His fate and NOT the fate of the natural temple. Let the power of that sink in. This one point superbly demonstrates the difference between our theologies.
Those particular carnal minded Jews THOUGHT he was talking about the natural temple, but He was NOT. In fact, we are given post-fulfillment conformation of this fact in the following verse:
"When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said." (John 2:22)
Thus precisely identifies the carnal-minded affections, and the dramatic failure, of full preterist exegesis.
That system THINKS Jesus was ultimately talking about natural events regarding prophetic consummation, but He was NOT. And again, full preterism finds itself in exactly the same shoes as the first century Jews. Your application of Jesus' words to the natural temple demonstrates this quite well.
With Jesus focusing on Himself and His fate, yet the carnal minded Jews (and full preterists) focusing on the natural temple and its fate, are they not attempting to rob Jesus Christ of His glory (whether they realized it or not)? It is, in my estimation, a crass rejecton of Jesus' ministry... all for the sake of protecting their place and their systems.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mark 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself, and come down from the cross.
And so, with Jesus being in whom all fulness dwells, and the amen to all the promises of God, the focal point of all prophecy, and the self-professed telos and eschatos -- and so on and so forth -- what benefit is there in making the focal point of prophecy to acutally be a long-extinct building from a far flung corner of the world?
Could this be the reason why Christianity has flourished for 2,000 years - even conquering the most powerful nation in antiquity - with virtually no knowledge of AD70? Why now, after 2,000 years, does knowledge of this event so quickly take over one's whole way of life? Why do full preterists cover great distances to gain a single convert to AD70, yet don't focus nearly as much on gaining converts to Christ?? Trust me, that is a fair assessment, and you will know a tree by its fruits.
I surely hope you re-read your post a few more times with this in mind, because the broadening of your understanding of the coming of the son of man is much to be admired. In the past it seemed like you were dedicated to a unique coming of the son of man in AD70. I am glad to see that you find ALL THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS of His power and glory as likewise being a coming of Christ.
Now, this idea that it somehow "culminated in AD70" is an understandable attempt to show your allegiance to the system of full preterism by salvaging its AD70 focal point, but I strongly encourage you to let that go and follow Jesus into a deeper understanding of the significance of His temple.
By the way, Paul uses the temple with the same personal focus:
1 Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
1 Cor. 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
2 Cor. 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (a work which is still in progress and unfulfilled in AD70)
The point is, that there is no denying that the temple imagery means something... but it means "look unto Jesus, the author and finisher" and "the chief cornerstone." The cleansing of the temple is a prime example of how the temple is used as a type or a picture of Jesus' work in reforming His people in divine power and glory NOW. To say that a natural building 2,000 years ago fulflled all of this -- and was not simply a shadow -- is carnal-minded heresy.
Surely you can see this more clearly now. It certainly took me a long time to see ; after all, I'm a Gentile who needed a decade just to really catch up to the imagery with which a Jew would have been raised. So it is understandable that it takes time to lift our gaze from the schoolmaster which points to Christ... to Jesus Christ Himself.
Fulfill the promise of full preterism's learning curve by keeping the historical focus where it belongs.. as a mere collection of shadowy typology, which points to the continuing substance of Jesus Christ's prophetic fulfillment throughout all generations.
Colossians 3:2 "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."
2 Cor. 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. "
rich blessings!
todd
Unbelievable, PreteristArchive. How could you have so completely missed the entire point of my post. I proved NO point of yours! Did you read my post? You misunderstood me entirely, so let me make it clear again. I did NOT say that all those things that were witnessed and heard of by the the high priest and Caiaphas were His "comings." When did I say that? I SAID that the things they witnessed were evidence of their "seeing" Him sitting at the right hand of power--not seeing His coming! That is what I said. I did NOT agree with you. Please read more closely what is posted. Throughout the days following those words He said to Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin they saw the EVIDENCE of His position at the right hand of power. Did I not spell that out to you? They did not YET at that time see His coming! There is a big difference in what I clearly said and how you are taking it! Again, those were NOT comings of Jesus. I NEVER said that! Please read again what I posted, PreteristArchive!
I am STILL very much dedicated to the unique coming of Christ in A. D. 70. I have not deviated in the slightest from that. I never said otherwise. So please do not admire me--we are still very much at odds. If you take my post as I clearly presented it, you are NOT in agreement with me at all!
Preterist
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 08-28-2008 at 11:40 PM..
One fundamentally important point to note, however, is that we are told - by inspiration - that when Jesus said "destroy this temple," He was not talking about the Jewish temple. According to the Holy Spirit, "he spake of the temple of his body" Here is the whole passage:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
This is a super important distinction, because the focal point is Jesus. It is about His fate and NOT the fate of the natural temple. Let the power of that sink in. This one point superbly demonstrates the difference between our theologies.
Those particular carnal minded Jews THOUGHT he was talking about the natural temple, but He was NOT. In fact, we are given post-fulfillment conformation of this fact in the following verse:
With Jesus focusing on Himself and His fate, yet the carnal minded Jews (and full preterists) focusing on the natural temple and its fate, are they not attempting to rob Jesus Christ of His glory (whether they realized it or not)? It is, in my estimation, a crass rejecton of Jesus' ministry... all for the sake of protecting their place and their systems.
rich blessings!
todd
(NKJV) Mark 14:58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.' "
(Young) Mark 14:58 `We heard him saying--I will throw down this sanctuary made with hands, and by three days, another made without hands I will build;'
Christ had to die first in order for Him to be the spiritual temple. Even at that, it wasn't fully complete at the cross because:
Hebrews 9:8-11 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It [was] symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience -- [concerned] only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came [as] High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Before His crucifixion, Christ was not the temple. IF: if Christ was the temple already, he would not have had to destroy himself.
There had to be, beforehand, a transformation from one covenant to another. One temple to another. Physical to spiritual. The Old was being done away with. Christ was the new temple. You don't destroy the new and then rebuild the new again. The scripture above proves this.
You have an agenda my friend, and you know clearly what you are trying to achieve here... and I'm onto you.
(NKJV) Mark 14:58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.' "
(Young) Mark 14:58 `We heard him saying--I will throw down this sanctuary made with hands, and by three days, another made without hands I will build;'
Christ had to die first in order for Him to be the spiritual temple. Even at that, it wasn't fully complete at the cross because:
Hebrews 9:8-11 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It [was] symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience -- [concerned] only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came [as] High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Before His crucifixion, Christ was not the temple. IF: if Christ was the temple already, he would not have had to destroy himself.
There had to be, beforehand, a transformation from one covenant to another. One temple to another. Physical to spiritual. The Old was being done away with. Christ was the new temple. You don't destroy the new and then rebuild the new again. The scripture above proves this.
You have an agenda my friend, and you know clearly what you are trying to achieve here... and I'm onto you.
If Christ is the high priest can he also be the temple? - Paul said that believers are the temple. With the destruction of the physical temple in 70AD was that the start of the spiritual temple being built continuing to today? When it says by three days he will build another not with human hands? Does this relate to Hosea 6:2 After 2 days he will revive us, in the third day he will raise us up?
1 Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
1 Cor. 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
2 Cor. 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (a work which is still in progress and unfulfilled in AD70)
I agree that when it says the building is growing unto an holy temple that it is a process ...... and at some stage I would think that it will have an end, when God is all in all - after Christ has subdued all enemies and every knee has bowed and every tongue has confessed.
I responded back to you at post #517, and you did'nt answer my questions. I guess there is no discussing this when one person has Revelation in a box and one does not.
Thanks for your time.
I did answer your questions--twice now! Revelation 14 and 17 are speaking about the same Babylon--Jerusalem. These events are not presented in chronological order--one is a restatement of the other. Do Genesis 1:26 and 2:7 speak of two creations of man or is one merely a restatement of the first with different details? The latter is true. This is the same technique employed in the Revelation. There are not two Adams in Genesis and there are not two Babylons in Revelation. That was my answer to you.
I don't know of anyone who would claim to have Revelation "in a box." I certainly have not in spite of your assessment. But the entire book does become far less daunting when the events depicted in it are placed in their proper historical time frame--ca. A. D. 70.
Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 08-29-2008 at 07:27 AM..
Why do full preterists cover great distances to gain a single convert to AD70, yet don't focus nearly as much on gaining converts to Christ?? Trust me, that is a fair assessment, and you will know a tree by its fruits.
Very significant point.
As soon as a doctrinal point becomes more important or takes our attention away from Christ, I think a huge red flag should go up.
If Christ is the high priest can he also be the temple? - Paul said that believers are the temple. With the destruction of the physical temple in 70AD was that the start of the spiritual temple being built continuing to today? When it says by three days he will build another not with human hands? Does this relate to Hosea 6:2 After 2 days he will revive us, in the third day he will raise us up?
1 Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
1 Cor. 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"
2 Cor. 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord" (a work which is still in progress and unfulfilled in AD70)
I agree that when it says the building is growing unto an holy temple that it is a process ...... and at some stage I would think that it will have an end, when God is all in all - after Christ has subdued all enemies and every knee has bowed and every tongue has confessed.
Christ is the foundation.
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid down, which is Jesus Christ."
Christ is the chief corner stone of that foundation.
Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
His body is the temple.
John 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
The Temple is in heaven, but something had to happen before anyone could enter it!
Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw [something] like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark [and] over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous [are] Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true [are] Your ways, O King of the saints! 4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For [You] alone [are] holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." 5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Have these seven last plagues been poured out already? Is the wrath of God complete? If these last plagues are not complete today, then no one is able to enter the temple. So you are still outside. Read the above carefully.
Are you still outside God's spiritual temple? Do we have this free gift today to enter into this holy temple? "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. John 14:18 According to futurists, the seven plagues have not been complete.
Quote:
OnOurWay2MO But I believe that Mystery Babylon is not the same as the Babylon in chapter 14. I see a gap between chapter 14 and chapter 17. I think we are somewhere in chapter 16 or 17 right now. The plagues and vials I believe were/are spread out over time, not all at once.
But they are complete. We do have the access to the spiritual temple. Just as the saints did in the first century. Let us now revisit it again. Please look at the scripture below. The way into the holiest of all was not manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. What is the holiest of all? The spiritual temple. The physical had to be destroyed. This would leave no question who we are to follow today. There is no Jewish kingdom. There are no sacrifices. There is no physical temple. The reason most are waiting for the rebuilding of a third temple, is because they figure the time and events that happened do not justify their own means of how they personally interpret scripture.
Hebrews 9:8-11 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. It [was] symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience -- [concerned] only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. But Christ came [as] High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
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For you devour widows' houses
Every time an individual (be he a heathen or not) truly understands the words of Jesus, Jesus has returned from the dead.
