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Both belief and obedience are necessary for salvation They go hand in hand.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (NKJV)
Believe is used twice in this verse. The first time it is used, the Greek term is pisteuó: It means to believe, entrust.
The Greek term for the second use of believe is apeitheó. It means to disobey
The ESV has a more accurate rendering of John 3:36.
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36 ESV)
How will our Calvinist friends deny that salvation is dependent upon OUR belief and obedience?
I’m not a Calvinist as such but I can understand what Calvin was meaning - he was a theologian who was interpreting the Scriptures in the light of the Reformation
His focus was ‘the church’ and his view was that individual/everyday priests were to be given jurisdiction over their own local congregation rather than being under the administration of the ‘papacy’ and the ‘schoolmen’
The calling of God is irrevocable
It is not dependent on us
I believe that how the religious respond to that calling will always affect their/our earthly and carnal circumstances in the here and now and that is in regard to if we are kept under tutors, teachers - that is the church system which is the administrative side (law) or whether we progress past being under that administration - neither state is for ‘ourselves’
Look at Romans 11:25-36
And also Galatians
All this has to do with timing over the past 2000 years
This is also part of how the ‘Calvinist’ has been trained/taught to view things - from the perspective of being called/predestined and it is religious in nature
And it has to do with the ‘distribution’ from the ‘greater’ to the ‘lesser’ in generational cycles
IMO, it is called replacing our ancestors' primitive, barbaric, and misguided context of a wrathful God who we "filthy rags" needed to appease by sacrifices with the context of God's Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness toward His children as described, revealed, and personally demonstrated by Jesus on the Cross! The difference that makes in reading the Bible is utterly astounding. We see ourselves NOT as the "filthy rags" God despises, but as His beloved children. The agape love context replaces and removes all the counterproductive nonsense about fear of God and obedience to commands . . . OR ELSE Hell.
The agape love context emphasizes God's mercy, compassion, long-suffering kindness, and nurturing guidance so we can AVOID any negative spiritual consequences. Any dire warnings about negative spiritual consequences are NOT because they are being imposed by God as punishments! They will be the natural spiritual result of whatever we have BECOME as Spirits, period! Loving what kind of Spirit we are BECOMING is how we "choose Hell" instead of God.
I’m not a Calvinist as such but I can understand what Calvin was meaning - he was a theologian who was interpreting the Scriptures in the light of the Reformation
His focus was ‘the church’ and his view was that individual/everyday priests were to be given jurisdiction over their own local congregation rather than being under the administration of the ‘papacy’ and the ‘schoolmen’
The calling of God is irrevocable
It is not dependent on us
I believe that how the religious respond to that calling will always affect their/our earthly and carnal circumstances in the here and now and that is in regard to if we are kept under tutors, teachers - that is the church system which is the administrative side (law) or whether we progress past being under that administration - neither state is for ‘ourselves’
Look at Romans 11:25-36
And also Galatians
All this has to do with timing over the past 2000 years
This is also part of how the ‘Calvinist’ has been trained/taught to view things - from the perspective of being called/predestined and it is religious in nature
And it has to do with the ‘distribution’ from the ‘greater’ to the ‘lesser’ in generational cycles
I'm ordained in the ostensibly CALVINIST Presbyterian Church (USA) and I dunno what any of that means. And we can't get once-and-for-all, "one size fits all" answers by quoting verses from the bible. The sacred writers had a perspective----- as we all do. They wrote from that perspective. They were not writing a biography of Jesus. They were actually, each in his own way, inventing a new genre: "gospel." To quote verses from the bible and apply it to non-believers is naive and simplistic.
The original question at the top of this thread requires thinking, not merely quoting. Remember that the bible BEGS to be interpreted, too.
I'm ordained in the ostensibly CALVINIST Presbyterian Church (USA) and I dunno what any of that means. And we can't get once-and-for-all, "one size fits all" answers by quoting verses from the bible. The sacred writers had a perspective----- as we all do. They wrote from that perspective. They were not writing a biography of Jesus. They were actually, each in his own way, inventing a new genre: "gospel." To quote verses from the bible and apply it to non-believers is naive and simplistic.
The original question at the top of this thread requires thinking, not merely quoting. Remember that the bible BEGS to be interpreted, too.
I agree the Holy Scriptures require interpretation.
And also that we all have different perspectives.
Also that it is simplistic to take things written in the Scriptures and apply it to non-believers.
I also believe that the theologians ie church Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Reformers, etc over the past 2000 have done various interpretation and what gets taken into the various church gatherings are very diluted and ritualised and dogmatised - what happens on this forum is a bit like Chinese whispers and the arguments on this forum are about that dogmatic, ritualised, simplified view, perspective that the various types of gatherings have taken in and its like everyone is speaking a different type of language about salvation, damnation, sanctification, eternal torment, universal salvation, etc
Sorry I’m not making myself clear. I find it can be difficult putting my thoughts into words, just ignore me if I’m still being unclear …
Have you read any of Calvin’s writings?
I have been reading ‘Calvin’s Institutes’ very interesting - my interest was sparked by the interest Kate has in challenging ‘Calvinists’
I was required to study Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion." One of the most boring classes I ever was required to carry. The only saving grace was the professor, who was one of the best. "The Institutes" is the most boring, granular theological writing I think I've ever encountered. If memory serves me, Calvin WAS going to be a lawyer, before he answered the call to Ministry. I guess that figures.
I like to describe it this way:
The most rabid, devoted Soviet communists all have a copy of "Das Kapital" on display in their homes, as a badge of honor. But has anyone ever tried to actually get through it? The book is about 14 gazillion pages. I suppose "The Institutes" could function the same way.
Calvin made contributions to the Church, no doubt. "The Institutes" was not one of them. Not if you ask me.
I was required to study Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion." One of the most boring classes I ever was required to carry. The only saving grace was the professor, who was one of the best. "The Institutes" is the most boring, granular theological writing I think I've ever encountered. If memory serves me, Calvin WAS going to be a lawyer, before he answered the call to Ministry. I guess that figures.
I like to describe it this way:
The most rabid, devoted Soviet communists all have a copy of "Das Kapital" on display in their homes, as a badge of honor. But has anyone ever tried to actually get through it? The book is about 14 gazillion pages. I suppose "The Institutes" could function the same way.
Calvin made contributions to the Church, no doubt. "The Institutes" was not one of them. Not if you ask me.
I do find that there are parts that I skim over, and other parts that are interesting
I dunno if it’s just me but it actually seems that its like it was not written by just one person
I’m more reading it to get the perspective of the Calvinist views that are being fought over on this forum
I do find that there are parts that I skim over, and other parts that are interesting
I dunno if it’s just me but it actually seems that its like it was not written by just one person
I’m more reading it to get the perspective of the Calvinist views that are being fought over on this forum
Yes, it was written by just Calvin, himself. By the 1500s, we had discovered what plagiarism is, LOL.
You're reading it with a purpose. That's good, then. A lot of my resistance to Calvin's theology is, I suppose, on account of the way he expressed it. I was just thinking to myself, since you mentioned the Institutes: my memory of it, and why it seemed so boring: it reads just like watching someone laying brick. Laborious, even skillful. But with the same repetitive motions and steps and procedures. Over and over. Completely airtight. The same thing, again and again. Not even a hint anywhere that he even tried to make it interesting for the reader. But I suppose that just was not his purpose, eh? In short, it reads like a LAWYER wrote it. That was his previous background.
Yes, it was written by just Calvin, himself. By the 1500s, we had discovered what plagiarism is, LOL.
You're reading it with a purpose. That's good, then. A lot of my resistance to Calvin's theology is, I suppose, on account of the way he expressed it. I was just thinking to myself, since you mentioned the Institutes: my memory of it, and why it seemed so boring: it reads just like watching someone laying brick. Laborious, even skillful. But with the same repetitive motions and steps and procedures. Over and over. Completely airtight. The same thing, again and again. Not even a hint anywhere that he even tried to make it interesting for the reader. But I suppose that just was not his purpose, eh? In short, it reads like a LAWYER wrote it. That was his previous background.
That repetitiveness is a literary technique I think
There are things that do make sense and are put in clear language, but they interspersed among the things that you term boring.
I have noticed this in a lot of the writings of the fathers, doctors, saints, philosophers, etc they use myth, fable, stories, and jargon to clothe and obscure the meanings and purpose
They also write to ‘the reader’ or to a person where the persons name has meaning
This is the same type of technique used in the Holy Scriptures by the writers/scribes
That repetitiveness is a literary technique I think
There are things that do make sense and are put in clear language, but they interspersed among the things that you term boring.
I have noticed this in a lot of the writings of the fathers, doctors, saints, philosophers, etc they use myth, fable, stories, and jargon to clothe and obscure the meanings and purpose
They also write to ‘the reader’ or to a person where the persons name has meaning
This is the same type of technique used in the Holy Scriptures by the writers/scribes
Yes. True.
Luke writes to Theophilus. Was that an actual person, or is it anyone? You or me? Because the NAME means "friend of God." That one will be argued over forever.
Myths and fables I can swallow. Interesting. I'm not against any particular genre. Boredom puts me off pretty quickly, though. I don't mean to say Calvin does not make sense. It's just....... Like a diplomat giving a 40,000 word speech at the UN; she could have made her case in 3 paragraphs, y'know?
A couple of pretty great selections from our own day that are very rich and deep, but at the same time, I find them extremely interesting, too:
Yes. True.
Luke writes to Theophilus. Was that an actual person, or is it anyone? You or me? Because the NAME means "friend of God." That one will be argued over forever.
Myths and fables I can swallow. Interesting. I'm not against any particular genre. Boredom puts me off pretty quickly, though. I don't mean to say Calvin does not make sense. It's just....... Like a diplomat giving a 40,000 word speech at the UN; she could have made her case in 3 paragraphs, y'know?
A couple of pretty great selections from our own day that are very rich and deep, but at the same time, I find them extremely interesting, too:
That is why I have learnt the technique of skimming over things and letting the names snd concepts that interest me lead me to other places
There is a lot of information contained in the old writings but we need to be able to ‘sift’ them and relate them in what/how/when they were/are referring to
Another one of those names is ‘Timothy’ Paul’s son
G5095 (Strong)
Τιμόθεος
Timotheos
tee-moth'-eh-os
From G5092 and G2316; dear to God; Timotheus, a Christian: - Timotheus, Timothy.
1Ti 1:1**Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 1:2**Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Another thing that jumped out at me a while ago is the way all the Pauline writing have the same type of beginning and end - the grace, mercy, peace
Last edited by Meerkat2; 05-30-2023 at 02:12 PM..
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