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While you don't necessarily want to debate, this IS a debate forum, and you DID raise a 'debatable' topic.
Before any discussion on 'tongues' we must apply some biblical savvy and also look at what was going on at the time these letters of Paul (scriptures?) were written.
'Tongues' is only ever mentioned by Paul in his letter to the Church of Corinth. Why only that church? Why were 'tongues' not mentioned in Paul's letters to the other early Christian Churches with which he corresponded? THIS is important to know when discussing the issue of 'tongues'.
The answer is because 'tongues' and Paul's admonition of the way these different languages were being abused had become problematic regarding the efficient operation of the Church of Corinth. Corinth was the hub of commerce back in the day and people from a variety of different countries, different cultures, and different languages converged on the city. Some of these folks evidently made a habit of attending that church and creating problems by speaking - and praying apparently - in their native tongues and creating confusion. The 'locals' didn't understand them and, apparently, became confused and perhaps disturbed. This is why an interpreter became a necessity.
When Paul makes reference to 'the tongues of angels' he is simply using hyperbole (exaggerated language) to let his audience see how disruptive this out of control 'tongue-speaking' within the church environment had become. Moreover - and THIS is very important! - this unsettling 'babble' of various languages being spoken at the same time ONLY occurred within the Church of Corinth where foreigners gathered and spoke their native languages en masse!
As long as one does not or CHOOSES NOT TO see the hyperbolic reference of Paul regarding 'the tongues of angels', further discussion on this topic is rather futile.
Well this thread was more me just getting a pulse on who prayed with tongues. And of course, not all threads are debate threads, but some are for discussion and opinions. Again with that said, speaking with other tongues was a thing in the early church. Like I mentioned with Acts 2, and there are many other examples within the Book of Acts. It is a gift from the Holy Spirit.
I wouldn't agree with the interpretation the Corinthian church was just speaking their native languages, and others couldn't understand. Paul specifically said one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. In his spirit, he/she speaks mysteries. So no one understood what is being said, even the person speaking. The only way to interpret, was through the gift of interpretation. Of course God could also cause us to speak a human language that we don't know, but someone else might. If they understand that, they could interpret.
For me anyway, their overall 'theology' is pretty much out the window as long as this silly babble as being indicative of an infilling of the Holy Spirit is a part of this 'theology'.
Romulus, the "magic believers" (no matter what denomination) are unreachable with pure reason and logic because their God can make anything possible and has promised to do so as a gift as long as they follow what they think is God's word (the Bible) instead of JESUS who is the ONE AND ONLY Word of God (Logos) -- the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
Romulus, the "magic believers" (no matter what denomination) are unreachable with pure reason and logic because their God can make anything possible and has promised to do so as a gift as long as they follow what they think is God's word (the Bible) instead of JESUS who is the ONE AND ONLY Word of God (Logos) -- the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
I think also a part of it is that Christians in the church need to feel as if they are doing things but they are looking to the external traditions, rituals rather than the internal meaning
I was in a Pentecostal environment from about 11-15 I guess and they believe the ‘babble’ called speaking in tongues is the sign that they are being moved by the Holy Spirit but that is focusing on the external
It has become a tradition, a ritual which gathers them together in one place and it’s something they do
They haven’t gone to the next step which is to separate the traditions and ritual to what it is referring to
The Holy Spirit works through our spirit as it is able, I believe they are trying to force a connection to the Spirit as a community and organisation and it doesn’t work that way
Praying in tongues is a gift of the spirit of Christ, so if your church does not believe then you will never receive this gift in your church ....... A Pastor laid hands on here some twenty years ago and this gift came a short time later, Glory to God ....... Some prophets speak in tongues and then will interpret in English of the church, as the Lord brings a prophetic Word to build faith in the Lord ...... The tongues that I received are there in worship to the Lord and an unknown tongues to travail or groin in the spirit which is living water of the spirit comes out of the belly to bless the believers....Another way to pray in the spirit is to pray the exact Words God gave you to pray ... Glory to God
Praying in tongues is a gift of the spirit of Christ, so if your church does not believe then you will never receive this gift in your church ....... A Pastor laid hands on here some twenty years ago and this gift came a short time later, Glory to God ....... Some prophets speak in tongues and then will interpret in English of the church, as the Lord brings a prophetic Word to build faith in the Lord ...... The tongues that I received are there in worship to the Lord and an unknown tongues to travail or groin in the spirit which is living water of the spirit comes out of the belly to bless the believers....Another way to pray in the spirit is to pray the exact Words God gave you to pray ... Glory to God
If you don't know what is being said, then who benefits? If there is no interpretation then there is only nonsense.
German Christians will no doubt pray in German, i.e. the native 'tongue' of a German person. Likewise, those from China, Japan, Swahili, etc. etc. will speak, write and (if Christians) pray in THEIR native language ('tongue').
Really? Scripture?
The Apostles would have spoken, written (maybe) and prayed in their own native 'tongue'.
Wouldn't this be tantamount to God praying to Himself?
Even if a person is inept enough not to have worked it out beforehand what is on their mind and what they want to relay through prayer, their 'rambling' will still be in their own native language, i.e., their native 'tongue'. Why replace one's inability to think or to express one's thoughts in a clear or orderly manner with actual 'babble'?
I guess there is no law against 'babble' if that's your thing. If done within earshot of others, however, they may think you're rather silly.
* Bible 'tongues' = 'KNOWN foreign languages'.
I'm on the floor. I thought I needed to say something, turns out I don't. This says it all.
I want to get a pulse on how many of us pray in tongues. As I read from the NT, this is something the original apostles did in their prayer. Paul mentioned we don't know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit intercedes for us. So how many of us pray in tongues and how often?
Well this thread was more me just getting a pulse on who prayed with tongues. And of course, not all threads are debate threads, but some are for discussion and opinions.
Alright. Then I will modify my previous comment with "This is a discussion and opinion forum, and you DID raise a topic for discussion and opinion."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Again with that said, speaking with other tongues was a thing in the early church.
No, it wasn't. That is, nowhere but the Church of Corinth created by the influx of foreign visitors to the city with their native languages. Nowhere BUT in the Book of Corinthians are 'tongues' even referenced. Therefore, this phenomenon was UNIQUE to the Church of Corinth for the reasons previously given.
Again, Corinth was a powerful commercial center, one of the major trading hubs of Greece. Therefore, the city attracted many foreign traders who also brought their native languages with them. It would also appear that many of the foreigners brought with them criminal and Pagan idolatry practices which one might choose to further explore (as in 'Google') regarding Corinth's history.
And so, of course, with the foreign traders also came a variety of foreign languages. Just picture being in a marketplace - or 'agora' - with all these different languages being spoken around you. Likewise, picture being in A CHURCH setting with all these different languages being spoken around you. THEN you have an idea what Paul was dealing with in his attempts to restore order from bedlam within the church setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Like I mentioned with Acts 2, and there are many other examples within the Book of Acts. It is a gift from the Holy Spirit.
There are NO examples in the Book of Acts where 'tongues' were anything other than KNOWN languages. The Book of Acts tells us that the Holy Spirit chose to anoint certain folks, enabling them to engage with the foreign visitors in their own languages. While that would be, admittedly, some pretty spiffy stuff, that's all there was to it. NOWHERE are we told that ‘tongues’ became ANYTHING OTHER than KNOWN foreign languages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
I wouldn't agree with the interpretation the Corinthian church was just speaking their native languages, and others couldn't understand.
You're free to disagree, of course, but you would be wrong. I find it incomprehensible how anyone who can read could possibly take anything more from those passages of scripture in 1 Corinthians and make anything more out of them than what they mean. However, that IS what has occurred, thanks to out Pentecostal friends who just LOVE to flaunt their ‘spiritual gifts’.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Paul specifically said one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God.
That would be correct. Someone who speaks to God (as in prayer) in whatever language they use with which to do so isn’t speaking to anyone else but than to God. What have I missed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
In his spirit, he/she speaks mysteries. So no one understood what is being said . . .
That's right. Again, when I hear, for instance, a Chinese person speak all I hear are ‘unintelligible sounds’. Whatever they are saying is a total mystery to me. Only a fellow Chinese person or a skilled linguist can understand what is being said.
All I'm doing ^ is stating the obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
. . .even the person speaking.
Nowhere in scripture are we told that anyone who speaks a specific and a legitimate language doesn't know what they are saying. 'Babble', on the other hand, cannot be understood by the speaker or the hearer BECAUSE it's just 'babble'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
The only way to interpret, was through the gift of interpretation.
Legitimate languages CAN be interpreted. 'Babble' CANNOT be interpreted. See, we're talking at cross purposes here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Of course God could also cause us to speak a human language that we don't know, but someone else might. If they understand that, they could interpret.
Yeah, I guess . . .
* Anyone who genuinely believes that their 'gibberish' is a gift of the Holy Spirit would not be willing to listen to any form of reason from anyone on an online forum. While most are genuine 'fakers' I do believe that others DO genuinely believe that they have been singled out by the Holy Spirit to speak to God in an angelic language. Yes, that IS what they believe 'tongues' to be ..."angel speak". And there is no way that someone is going to willingly relinquish this 'alleged gift' ...even when reason and correct Bible interpretation is placed in front of them.
You might find this thread interesting, especially my posts.
Thanks! I'll give it a read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Alright. Then I will modify my previous comment with "This is a discussion and opinion forum, and you DID raise a topic for discussion and opinion."
No, it wasn't. That is, nowhere but the Church of Corinth created by the influx of foreign visitors to the city with their native languages. Nowhere BUT in the Book of Corinthians are 'tongues' even referenced. Therefore, this phenomenon was UNIQUE to the Church of Corinth for the reasons previously given.
Again, Corinth was a powerful commercial center, one of the major trading hubs of Greece. Therefore, the city attracted many foreign traders who also brought their native languages with them. It would also appear that many of the foreigners brought with them criminal and Pagan idolatry practices which one might choose to further explore (as in 'Google') regarding Corinth's history.
And so, of course, with the foreign traders also came a variety of foreign languages. Just picture being in a marketplace - or 'agora' - with all these different languages being spoken around you. Likewise, picture being in A CHURCH setting with all these different languages being spoken around you. THEN you have an idea what Paul was dealing with in his attempts to restore order from bedlam within the church setting.
There are NO examples in the Book of Acts where 'tongues' were anything other than KNOWN languages. The Book of Acts tells us that the Holy Spirit chose to anoint certain folks, enabling them to engage with the foreign visitors in their own languages. While that would be, admittedly, some pretty spiffy stuff, that's all there was to it. NOWHERE are we told that ‘tongues’ became ANYTHING OTHER than KNOWN foreign languages.
You're free to disagree, of course, but you would be wrong. I find it incomprehensible how anyone who can read could possibly take anything more from those passages of scripture in 1 Corinthians and make anything more out of them than what they mean. However, that IS what has occurred, thanks to out Pentecostal friends who just LOVE to flaunt their ‘spiritual gifts’.
That would be correct. Someone who speaks to God (as in prayer) in whatever language they use with which to do so isn’t speaking to anyone else but than to God. What have I missed?
That's right. Again, when I hear, for instance, a Chinese person speak all I hear are ‘unintelligible sounds’. Whatever they are saying is a total mystery to me. Only a fellow Chinese person or a skilled linguist can understand what is being said.
All I'm doing ^ is stating the obvious.
Nowhere in scripture are we told that anyone who speaks a specific and a legitimate language doesn't know what they are saying. 'Babble', on the other hand, cannot be understood by the speaker or the hearer BECAUSE it's just 'babble'.
Legitimate languages CAN be interpreted. 'Babble' CANNOT be interpreted. See, we're talking at cross purposes here.
Yeah, I guess . . .
* Anyone who genuinely believes that their 'gibberish' is a gift of the Holy Spirit would not be willing to listen to any form of reason from anyone on an online forum. While most are genuine 'fakers' I do believe that others DO genuinely believe that they have been singled out by the Holy Spirit to speak to God in an angelic language. Yes, that IS what they believe 'tongues' to be ..."angel speak". And there is no way that someone is going to willingly relinquish this 'alleged gift' ...even when reason and correct Bible interpretation is placed in front of them.
I'm going to quote your responses as a whole and respond to it. We agree in Acts 2 all the believers were speaking known languages. Yet the thing is, they themselves didn't understand what they were saying, which I'm sure we agree on that point as well. The Bible tells us the Holy Spirit filled them, tongues like fire rested on them and they began to speak. Ultimately it doesn't matter if it is a known language or a heavenly language, which we can be certain there are heavenly languages, the person speaking does not know what they are saying. This happened when Peter preached to those in Cornelius' house, and when Paul came to disciples at Ephesus. All in all, the Holy Spirit causing believers to speak another language they didn't know wasn't a rare thing in the church during that day.
So what I'm getting from you is that everyone who spoke, knew what they were saying. If that were the case, you have to ask yourself why was it considered a wonder when they first spoke in Jerusalem? It's clearly pointed out the disciples who were gathered together were men and women from that specific area. Meaning they all spoke and only knew the language of that area. I also said before, they weren't scholars, they didn't study different languages, they were country folk
They spoke different languages unknown to them through the power of the Holy Spirit. They were speaking from their spirit, not from their head. So any other mentions of speaking in tongues, should be viewed in this same context. Other scriptures talking about tongues....
Mark 16: 17
Romans 8: 26-27
Jude 1: 20
You mentioned the Corinthian church being a hub for different ethnicities and cultures, but again in light of what all the Scriptures are telling us about speaking with tongues, we must view Paul's writings in this context. And if Paul says it is our spirit praying mysteries, why read anything else into that? If Paul mentions interpretation as being a gift from the Spirit, it wouldn't make sense that a regular person could translate what is being said if it is a known language. That wouldn't be a gift, that is just a native person translating their own language. So no, the tongues Paul was talking about in the Corinthian church were not known languages. I'll end my response here, but I want to add one more thing....
With this topic I'm specifically talking about praying in tongues/praying from your spirit as the Holy Spirit gives us utterance. Paul spoke to the Corinthian church because they were speaking in tongues out loud, with no one to interpret. I don't particularly care for the outward stuff a lot of denominational churches do. This is getting back to the disorder of the Corinthian church back in the day. Yet the Holy Spirit helping us pray to our Father, that is what I'm getting at. Powerful stuff!!!!! This is something the early church did. They prayed. Their prayers were powerful! As such, they were able to do God's will by relying on God's power flowing through them. There is a severe lack of God's power among all believers today, and I believe this may be one of the reasons why. We are despising God's gifts and tools. We are focused on our ability to do, the flesh.
Last edited by Heavenese; 06-21-2023 at 08:34 AM..
The poll is incomplete. The problem is that "praying in the Spirit" does not mean babbling incoherently. Yes, I do pray "in the Spirit", as it is Him that guides me. But no, I don't babble incoherently and call it "tongues"
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This says it all.
