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Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
twin.spin, more scripture about You.
[LUKE 17:] 22 Then He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see [it.]
Oh thats funny . You quote Luke 17:22 like I'm supposed to be alarmed, when preterist told me that I wasn't taking it into context (when I quoted that way back when). He said "It was for THAT generation." Now your applying those verses to ME in TODAY'S GENERATION, 2000 years later? Thank you for putting Luke 17 it into CONTEXT!
two verses later
Luke 17:24 For the Son of Manin his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other."
Luke 17:26
"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
Luke 17:30
"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed
I guess the dayof the Son of Man hasn't come yet for you to use Jesus' warning, for me not to see it. Thanks for the heads-up!
Do understand, I know that you had no intention of agreeing with me.
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-29-2008 at 03:00 PM..
Oh thats funny . You quote Luke 17:22 like I'm supposed to be alarmed, when preterist told me that I wasn't taking it into context (when I quoted that way back when). He said "It was for THAT generation." Now your applying those verses to ME in TODAY'S GENERATION, 2000 years later? Thank you for putting Luke 17 it into CONTEXT!
two verses later
Luke 17:24 For the Son of Manin his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other."
Luke 17:26
"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
Luke 17:30
"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed
I guess the dayof the Son of Man hasn't come yet. Thanks for the heads-up!
Please, twin.spin! What's funny is that you completely misunderstood what Hiram was saying and then thought it was funny! He and I are in agreement. He was not applying the verses to YOU! He was telling you to take note of the personal pronoun YOU which does not apply to us!
What makes you say the day of the Son of Man hasn't come yet? The timing of Luke's words in chapter 17 is clearly laid out in chapter 21. "This generation will by no means pass away till ALL THINGS take place" (Luke 21:32).
2 Timothy 2:17-19
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
preterism teaching is gangrene. Preterism says that the ressurrection has already taken place. Were Hymenaeus and Philetus preterists? Gods word says so. I can just hear them say, THAT, THIS, CONTEXT, GENERATION, What end of the world".
"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."
2 Timothy 2:17-19
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
preterism teaching is gangrene. Preterism says that the ressurrection has already taken place. Were Hymenaeus and Philetus preterists? Gods word says so. I can just hear them say, THAT, THIS, CONTEXT, GENERATION, What end of the world".
"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."
twin.spin: Notice that Paul did NOT correct Hymenaeus and Philetus' teaching concerning the resurrection--just their timing of it! If they had been teaching that physical bodies were to burst forth out of graves, what sense would that have made? No one would have believed that such a thing had already happened! Hymenaeus and Philetus understood the nature of the resurrection--that it was to happen in their lifetimes and that it was NOT physical bodies rising out of earthen graves!
It is the futurists in the church today who are involved in the errors of Hymenaeus and Philetus--their timing is way off because they do not pay attention to the words you find fault with and, therefore, do not understand the nature of the resurrection.
Consider this: Paul said to Felix, the governor--"There is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15). This was the consummation of their salvation (and by extension, ours). Paul told the Romans--"It is ALREADY the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for NOW salvation is NEARER to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is AT HAND" (Romans 13:11, 12).
Weren't they already saved? What salvation was nearer? It was victory over death and dying and the grave! No longer would believers wait for their Lord in Hades; all would go immediately into His presence in their resurrection bodies fitted for heaven (flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom!). Their salvation was soon to be complete! Jesus told His disciples that when THEY saw the signs of His coming "in a cloud with power and great glory," THEY were to lift up THEIR heads because THEIR redemption drew NEAR (Luke 21:28). There would be the trumpet "sound," the dead in Hades would be freed ("raised imperishable"), and all those then living would be changed in the twinkling of an eye! (1 Cor. 15). That trumpet was to sound in THAT generation just as Jesus prophesied (Mat. 24:31-34). That was the blessed hope! That is what Hymenaeus and Philetus thought had already occurred! Again, Paul's issue with them was their timing of the resurrection and not their concept of it! He did not go into a lengthy explanation of how stupid it would be to believe that the resurrection had already occurred because a bunch of bodies hadn't popped up out of their graves! Paul didn't say that because HE did not believe in the modern-day concept of the resurrection. He, therefore, simply said that it hadn't happened yet. But it was ABOUT TO!
Judgment also occurred at that time. Paul told the Athenians that God "has fixed a day in which He is ABOUT TO JUDGE the world in righteousness . . ." (Acts 17:31). In the presence of Felix and his wife, Paul spoke of the judgment that was then ABOUT TO COME (Acts 24:25). Paul told the Ephesians that there was a present age and an age which was ABOUT TO COME (Eph. 1:21)!
What is your problem with THAT, THIS, CONTEXT, GENERATION? They are very important concepts in correct Bible study. Do you think Paul had such words as these in mind? No! That is not the type of quarreling he was speaking of. The neglect of such significant words has led to the many timing errors in the modern-day church. Paul would find fault with the present denial that the resurrection and the judgment are long-past events and the insistence upon still future bodily resurrections from earthen graves! This is overthrowing the faith of others!
Futhermore, there is NO end of the world! There was a time of the end and an end of an age, but no end of this world!
Acts 2:25-35 "For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' "Men [and] brethren, let [me] speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '
Davids "hope" was fulfilled when the "enemies of Christ were defeated".
Heb. 1:13, 14 - "But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?" Are they not all ministering spirits, send out to render service for the sake of those who will [about to] inherit salvation?" The enemies of Christ were the Jewish people (Luke 19:27, Rom. 11:28, Phil 3:2, 18, 19). Christ crushed the head of all enemies even Death, and sat down at the right hand of His Father to reign eternally, whose kingdom shall have no end. Notice all the saints since the Fall are ABOUT to inherit salvation (redemption) in heaven.
Luke 19:27 'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay [them] before me.' "
twin.spin:
No longer would believers wait for their Lord in Hades;
Futhermore, there is NO end of the world! There was a time of the end and an end of an age, but no end of this world!
Preterist
Preterist,
You have left no doubt about your beliefs. Also, I have no more doubts whether preterism can be or is Christian. I'm now more intersted about preterism, generally speaking.
Tell me, are you representative of preterism in general, or would you be considered a extreme view amoung other preterists?
Is preterism found in a church? For example, go to INLC's church and you will find those who believe like her there. DOTL would same the same. I'm no different. Where would I find preterism? In someones house, a store front church, is it even organized at all?
Acts 2:25-35 "For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' "Men [and] brethren, let [me] speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '
Davids "hope" was fulfilled when the "enemies of Christ were defeated".
Heb. 1:13, 14 - "But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?" Are they not all ministering spirits, send out to render service for the sake of those who will [about to] inherit salvation?" The enemies of Christ were the Jewish people (Luke 19:27, Rom. 11:28, Phil 3:2, 18, 19). Christ crushed the head of all enemies even Death, and sat down at the right hand of His Father to reign eternally, whose kingdom shall have no end. Notice all the saints since the Fall are ABOUT to inherit salvation (redemption) in heaven.
Luke 19:27 'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay [them] before me.' "
Preterism falters on the difference between conquering death and doing away with it altogether. Only upon Christ rendering the kingdom to the Father is dead finally disposed, cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15). Christ provided the means to end death but its complete eradication is still future. Death has been with us since the fall of Adam and 70 AD had nothing to do with its end or even conquering it! The cross conquered death, not the event of 70 AD.
Nor did the event of 70 AD defeat the enemies of Christ, for the enemies of Christ are not merely the Jews but the heathen and the kings of the earth who conspire to rebel and take the kingdom from the Son.
“Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.” Ps. 2:1-3
There is absolutely no historical or scripture support that 70 AD ended the kings of the earth counsel against Yahweh’s anointed or that Christ has subjected them under his feet with power as yet. (Preterism neglects that the Jews must still come to their fullness so it IS arbitrary to assert they are enemies altogether. Rom. 11:12.)
“Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.” Heb. 2:8
And key to understanding Christ’s reign is understanding how he rules in POWER. Since the fall of Adam Yahweh has sat on His throne conducting His Providence on earth through common grace, even in defiance of the kings of the earth.
“By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.” Prov. 8:15-16
This common grace is exemplified by our admonition to submit ourselves to the ordained powers of these kings of the earth; that is common grace.
“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Rom. 13:1
70 AD absolutely changed nothing concerning Yahweh’s Providence through common grace! In truth the only eschatological intrusion of theocratic power is the ancient DOMINION of Israel and this is the only prototype of Christ’s rule. Yahweh’s covenant people are still subject to common grace and the kings of the earth, but in Christ’s kingdom the overcomers rule over the kings of the earth with the rod of iron, just as ancient Israel ruled Moab and Edom in the eschatological intrusion.
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Rev. 3:21
“And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.” Rev. 2:26-27
As I stated previously, Preterism is lacking a proper understanding of DOMINION and Luke chapter 19 is a case in point.
“…because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear…. Occupy till I come… when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him…. because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities…” Luke 19:11-17
Again we have the scriptures support that when Christ returns we are no longer subject to the common grace powers of the kings of the earth, but they are subject to us and Christ. This is the meaning of the authority we are given over CITIES in Luke above. Nevertheless, we are still subject to the powers that be until Christ returns; 70 AD had little to do with any change of power whatsoever. Rome had power over the Jews and Christians before 70 AD and continued to have power over them after 70 AD. Certainly, Preterism has strange doctrine concerning the nature of power.
JazZeke
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. You quote Luke 17:22 like I'm supposed to be alarmed, when preterist told me that I wasn't taking it into context (when I quoted that way back when). He said "It was for THAT generation." Now your applying those verses to ME in TODAY'S GENERATION, 2000 years later? Thank you for putting Luke 17 it into CONTEXT! 
Davids Hope
