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Ok Preterist, I humbly and sincerely see where you are coming from now!
In what I'm hearing you say, I think is, it's like life just keeps going on and on and every person who dies there judgment is either they go to hades or heaven. Depending on whether they accept Christ Jesus or not.
This interpretation is like sin will be forever, continuing generation after generation!!! There will never be an end to it.... in this world, on this earth that is. Is this what you are saying?
Yes, curlythecosmo: Jesus put an end to "sin" (i.e. the power of it and the sting of it--death [for those who believe]. He did not put an end to "sinning!" The only place where there is no sin and can be no sin is in His kingdom which is not of this world--in that "heavenly country" for which Abraham longed (Heb. 11).
It is a misunderstanding to think that this world will come to an end. The Bible speaks of an end of an age, not the end of the world!
Zephaniah 1:14 "The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly.
From Wikipedia:
"If the superscription of the book of Zephaniah is a reliable indicator of the time that the bulk of the book was composed, then Zephaniah was a contemporary of the prophet Jeremiah (or Jeremias). King Josiah ruled over Judah from approximately 640-609 BC"
Then he says ALL people go to "HADES" --not if Hades means hell where the damned go to. Beside that the living are not in hades, God is not in Hades or the God of the dead. Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." Matthew 22:32
'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of theliving." Mark 12:26-27
God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 'He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" You [preterist] are badly mistaken!" - Jesus.
Matthew 9:24
he[Jesus] said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him.
Was there a preterist in the crowd, sounds like it to me.
Preterist, take Jesus' advice.... "Go away." You're only laughing at him.
Jesus finally calls "a spade a spade". I will let him speak........
John 8:43-45 "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!"
I'm done with Preteristism foolishness, those who believe in such nonsense can not claim that they were not warned.
Note: I will NO LONGER communicate with people who so blatantly and falsely throw the words of Jesus at fellow believers as you and others here have repeatedly done. You are being exhorted to stop this shameful misuse of God's Word!
What is the CONTEXT of Mark 12, twin.spin? I grow weary of asking this because there are those here who lazily rip verses out of context to serve their own purpose! Shame on you, twin.spin! Those words you contemptuously threw at me, a fellow member of the body of Christ, are Jesus' own words directed at those godless, unrepentant Sadducees. By what authority do you then take them and direct them at me? By what authority, twin.spin? It is one thing to misquote and misapply the words of the inspired writers--that is bad enough--but to misapply the VERY words of Our Lord as those you have the authority to condemn another with His own words is beyond shameful!
What about John 8:43-45. WHAT IS THE CONTEXT, twin.spin? Do you know? Jesus is speaking to the PHARISEES. Am I a Pharisees? Am I? I am a blood-bought, born-again, redeemed child of the King. JESUS would never direct such words at me. By what authority, then, do you take the words of Jesus, God of very God, and apply them to me? By what authority do you call me a child of the Devil? By what authority do YOU use Jesus' words and accuse me of carrying out the Devil's desires? By what authority, twin.spin? Whom did Jesus tell to go away, Matthew 9? How dare you take Jesus' words out of context like that, as though you somehow share His authority to use His words in a way you choose to use them! Did He give the authority to take those words which He applied to someone else and to apply them to me? When did He do that, twin.spin? If He did NOT have ME in mind when He said, "Go away," why do you presume to think that He did? Who are YOU to dare to presume so?
This is no small matter. Let us be serious with God's Word! Let us cease from this abuse! Let us cease presuming that we speak for God and call a brother or sister in Christ "cursed" lest we bring some condemnation upon ourselves instead! I can barely write these words. I am so distraught over this abuse.
IN CHRIST, Preterist
Last edited by Preterist; 07-19-2008 at 04:48 PM..
Did not the prophet Joel clearly state "the day of the Lord is near"
Joel 1:15
Alas for that day! For the day of the LORDisnear; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORDisnear in the valley of decision
Did not the prophet Ezekiel clearly state, "the day of the Lord is near"
Ezekiel 30:3
For the dayisnear, the day of the LORDisnear— a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.
Did not the prophet Obediah clearly state,
Obadiah 1:15
"The day of the LORDisnear for all nations. As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head.
Did not the prophet Zephaniah clearly state,
Zephaniah 1:14
[ The Great Day of the Lord] "The great day of the LORDisnear— near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there.
Where is the valley of Jehoshaphat?
Why did Joel clearly say "NEAR" when Peter said it was fulfilled 780 years later?
The day [Great day] of the Lord spoken of by the prophets did not take place in 70 AD.......You are your own self fulfilling prophet.
"you cannot support what you believe through thorough and sound biblical principles of exegesis and present a logical, biblical thesis for your beliefs, you have no right to hold to them and no right to have confidence in what you believe!"
So the way I understand you, The day of the Lord is yet to take place. The Prophets of the Old Testament were speaking about the "Day of the Lord sometime in the distant future and you are thinking Peter is talking about the same event.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
In scripture, “the day of the Lord” has never, ever ever ever, never referred to a physical, literal return of the Lord. “The day of the Lord” always referred to the Lord's judgment upon either a nation of men or city. It refers to a destruction from God Almighty.
Lets look at Zephaniah. If you think that Zephaniah was talking about some 2000 years + after the birth of Christ then you are sadly mistaken.
quote twin.spinFrom Wikipedia: "If the superscription of the book of Zephaniah is a reliable indicator of the time that the bulk of the book was composed, then Zephaniah was a contemporary of the prophet Jeremiah (or Jeremias). King Josiah ruled over Judah from approximately 640-609 BC"
Lets allow scripture to interpret scripture instead of Wikipedia.
Zephaniah 1:1 The word of the LORD which came to Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.
So, we can see that by the above, Zephaniah was around during the days of Josiah.
2 Chron 34:1 Josiah [was] eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem.
More evidence, Josiah was eight when he became king, his kingship lasted 31 years for a total of 39, a generation
2 Kings 23:34 Then Pharaoh Necho made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in place of his father Josiah, and changed his name to Jehoiakim. And [Pharaoh] took Jehoahaz and went to Egypt, and he died there.
2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim [was] twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. His mother's name [was] Zebudah the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah.
Jehoiakim became king after his father Josiah.
Daniel 1:1-2 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.
As we can see in the above from the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, besieged and defeated Jerusalem. "And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand"
This is how the Lord's judgment came ("The day of the Lord") upon a nation. It was never a physical appearance by God. It was a judgement that the Jews understood.
Zephaniah 1:4,7,14-15 "I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem…for the day of the LORD is at hand: …The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:…That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."
This was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and this was fulfilled in 586 BC.
Also for more evidence of who was who and where, please look here at:
Matthew 1:10-11 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
The above means that Josiah had Jeconiah and his brothers about the time of the first destruction of Jerusalem. Please read once again Zephaniah 1:1
Your obscure vision of interpreting scripture, has led you into the false accusations against Preterist, also has undermine your knowledge of the term "Day of the Lord". You are also mistaken on your other evidences that you presented on your analysis of the term "day of the Lord", from Old Testament Prophets. Each one is a different "judgement", that we can only understand by reading and "diligent" study.
So the way I understand you, The day of the Lord is yet to take place.
The Great Day of the Lord or the day of the Lord has yet to happen. You are proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram
The Prophets of the Old Testament were speaking about the "Day of the Lord sometime in the distant future and you are thinking Peter is talking about the same event.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram
In scripture, “the day of the Lord” has never, ever ever ever, never referred to a physical, literal return of the Lord. “The day of the Lord” always referred to the Lord's judgment upon either a nation of men or city. It refers to a destruction from God Almighty.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Thanks for the exchange..................................
until we meet again,
Twin
The Great Day of the Lord or the day of the Lord has yet to happen. You are proof.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Thanks for the exchange..................................
until we meet again,
Twin
Matthew 1:10-11 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
The above means that Josiah had Jeconiah and his brothers were begot by Josiah about the time of the first destruction of Jerusalem. Please read once again Zephaniah 1:1 Josiah died just over three years (2 Kings 23:29-37) before the first destruction of Jerusalem. So it is during this time that Zephaniah was prophesying about the "day of the Lord" and destruction of Jerusalem. The time of the rein of King Josiah. This was a 39 year period that was the life-span of Josiah, as we saw in our calculations. Then shortly (3 years, 3 months) Jerusalem was destroyed. (the first temple)
The event described by Zephaniah took place shortly. It was at hand and took place during just after the rein of King Josiah.
Whenever false teachers cannot understand a passage, or teaching, or are unable to give an explanation, they turn and run and try to demonize the messenger.
We must use scripture to interpret scripture, and not the traditions and values of man.
How else do we interpret scripture?
Isaiah 28:9-13 " Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those [just] weaned from milk? Those [just] drawn from the breasts? For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, To whom He said, "This [is] the rest [with which] You may cause the weary to rest," And, "This [is] the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.
Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Daniel 1:1-2 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.
As we can see in the above from the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, besieged and defeated Jerusalem. "And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand"
This is how the Lord's judgment came ("The day of the Lord") upon a nation. It was never a physical appearance by God. It was a judgement that the Jews understood.
Zephaniah 1:4,7,14-15 "I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem…for the day of the LORD is at hand: …The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD:…That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."
This was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and this was fulfilled in 586 BC.
As we examine Zephaniah, and according to the futurist view it would appear that Zephaniah is referring to sometime in our future. If this is the case, my question to these futurists is:
Where are the Jews today?
How about Judah?
Where is the rapture spoken of in Zephaniah?
If the New Covenant is here now, do we still have the Old Covenant here at the same time. Is not the New Covenant complete?
Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there [is] a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Hebrews 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
So is this first tabernacle still standing? What is the Holiest of all? Hebrews says first. Is there another tabernacle?
Isaiah 65:15, "And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"
Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The above two verses were fulfilled in 70 AD, when the Jews were slayed, the temple burned down, and the Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to all who believe in Christ.
Why would God need to do this again?
Facts:
The Jews today do not even have a temple. They do not do sacrifices. They do not worship God of the Old Testament.
Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Many reference books record that Jews do not exist today.
The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973): "The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropocentric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics" (vol. 12, page 1054).
Collier's Encyclopedia (1977): "A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they live" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
John Bray: "Many Christians do not know that the vast majority of so-called Jews in the world today are the Ashkenazim Jews, while the remainder of them are the Sephardim Jews. The Ashkenazim Jews have as their background not the nation of Israel but a country called Khazaria, which country at one time was the largest country in Europe. The settlers of Khazaria were Turks and Huns. In A.D. 740 King Bulan of Khazaria decided to adopt the Judaistic religion for his country. A number of Jews were already living there. So he converted to Judaism, along with all his officials, and whole nation ended up being known as a nation of Jews. In 970, Russia came in and dominated the situation, and the Khazars were scattered, many of them going down into Poland and Lithuania. Where at the dawn of our modern civilization the largest concentration of Jews were found. Today, the largest percentage of so-called Jews in the world have as their background this group of people" (This information is fully documented in detail in John Bray's book, Israel in Bible Prophecy).
Yes. In some places a false teacher, in others a false prophet.
Jesus
Jesus
Jesus
Jesus
the same people who questioned Jesus' authority....sounds very familiar like your questions here.
You are just repeating what your father's (the Pharisees and teachers of the law) accused Jesus's disciples of doing.
Yes. Acts 1:8
Because there is nothing new under the sun and Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He saw you.
One of Gods witnesses to and for the truth. Not only do I dare, but am glad to speak for the truth.
John 8:47
He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
The reason I can dare to speak this way is 2 Corinthians 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.
I caution you for the last time, twin.spin. Every word that came out of the mouth of our Lord and Savior, came from God of very God--the same God Who spoke the world into being. We cannot and must not presume to use His words of condemnation against someone to whom He never directed them!
You use Jesus' words of judgment directed at godless Sadducees against a fellow member of Christ's body!
You use Jesus' words of judgment directed at apostate, unrepentant Pharisees and cast them at one redeemed by His precious blood!
Again, I ask, by whose authority do you stand in the place of Christ and take His holy, reverent words and so callously hurl them at another?
We CANNOT and MUST NOT presume that Jesus would EVER say such things to His own!
Accuse me if you want and object to me all you want, but use your own words not Christ's. You have no authority to presume to take Christ's words and judge someone Christ has not and does not judge.
What I say to you, I say to all and to myself as well. Let us be very careful how we use the words of Scripture--especially those which come from the lips of our mighty God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Every word He spoke from the least to the greatest is of far more value and authority than ALL the words men have ever spoken collectively since the beginning of time.
I am still waiting for one dispensationalist to explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:32-34, and 26:64.
In connection with these questions, please tell me:
Is there a "gap" between Matthew 16:27 and 16:28 or is Jesus speaking of one event?
Thank you.
Preterist
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Day of the Lord
