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Everyone has trouble understanding the Trinity because it exceeds our intellectual capability. As humans, we exist in something called the space/time continuum. That means that we’re subject to certain laws, one of which is that only one entity can occupy a given place at a given time. It’s all we know. So how can God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit be One, yet Three? All in the same place at the same time in one instant, three vastly different places in the next, and then back to one again? They talk to each other and yet they are each other. It’s beyond our comprehension.
Saying that the Trinity is like the 3 forms of water or like the three parts of an egg really doesn’t help because the water can’t be all three parts at once (at least not for long), and the egg, once separated, can’t ever go back to being one.
And yet, the Bible states that God is that way. How this can be is never explained, so we’re not asked to understand it. We’re just asked to believe it.
By the way, the same is true of several things we use every day and take for granted. For example, no one can completely explain how gravity, electricity or the engine in our car works. But we use them any way, even though we don’t understand them.
Hello favoured,
This is where I completely disagree. Its not entirely beyond our capacity to understand. If someone says that there is one God and then say that there cannot be a Father and a Son its completely irrational when they also assert God is unique. It cannot be such and such compared to what? Unique essentially implies no comparison. Now a human body has many parts but all will themselves to exist as a human. Is the head greater than the foot? Yes. Is the head and the hand one? Yes. Does the hand do the will of the head? Yes. Even our brain is separate. Did you notice your breathing until now? Who was breathing for you before? But Is there anything that we have ever seen that cannot be also divided? Is there any one thing that does not also have two things or more behind it? That God does not have a dynamic presence is what is completely irrational to me.
It's not possible? wow, i thought with God all things are possible, and to you who can believe all things are possible....
God says we can become one with Him... even that we can receive of His fulness...
Do we know what it would be like to receive of GODS Fullness? I bet there is nothing lacking...
The promise is; If we abide in Him.. He will abide in Us that we may be One as the Father and Son are One....
Do we know what ONEness is like, do we desire it?
godspeed,
freedom
Freedom,
I stated that answer based only on what we have talked about before. I do not believe (when taken with other parts of scripture) that "oneness" is understood as how you attempt to paint it --- so to speak.
Freedom,
I stated that answer based only on what we have talked about before. I do not believe (when taken with other parts of scripture) that "oneness" is understood as how you attempt to paint it --- so to speak.
What do you think oneness means then.
Here is what Jesus said;
Jhn 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
This is where I completely disagree. Its not entirely beyond our capacity to understand. If someone says that there is one God and then say that there cannot be a Father and a Son its completely irrational when they also assert God is unique. It cannot be such and such compared to what? Unique essentially implies no comparison. Now a human body has many parts but all will themselves to exist as a human. Is the head greater than the foot? Yes. Is the head and the hand one? Yes. Does the hand do the will of the head? Yes. Even our brain is separate. Did you notice your breathing until now? Who was breathing for you before? But Is there anything that we have ever seen that cannot be also divided? Is there any one thing that does not also have two things or more behind it? That God does not have a dynamic presence is what is completely irrational to me.
weLL, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions. I am a believer and I believe in the Holy trinity. It' just that God is God and some things just can't be explained. It will just be nice to be able to explain he trinity to people without so much comotion. When I said "it is beyond our comprehension", I was refering more to the mistries of God.
Last edited by favoured; 10-15-2008 at 12:45 PM..
Reason: to correct spelling errors
This is where I completely disagree. Its not entirely beyond our capacity to understand. If someone says that there is one God and then say that there cannot be a Father and a Son its completely irrational when they also assert God is unique. It cannot be such and such compared to what? Unique essentially implies no comparison. Now a human body has many parts but all will themselves to exist as a human. Is the head greater than the foot? Yes. Is the head and the hand one? Yes. Does the hand do the will of the head? Yes. Even our brain is separate. Did you notice your breathing until now? Who was breathing for you before? But Is there anything that we have ever seen that cannot be also divided? Is there any one thing that does not also have two things or more behind it? That God does not have a dynamic presence is what is completely irrational to me.
weLL, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions. I am a believer and I believe in the Holy trinity. It' just that God is God and some things just can't be explained. It will just be nice to be able to explain he trinity to people without so much comotion. When I said "it is beyond our comprehension", I was refering more to the mistries of God.
Hi favoured,
You seem to be one of the few who answered. I tend to agree most people engage in anthropomorphic nonsense in this discussion. However its easy to turn the table on absolute monotheists when you ask them that if God is only one, then he is only one of what?
This is where I completely disagree. Its not entirely beyond our capacity to understand. If someone says that there is one God and then say that there cannot be a Father and a Son its completely irrational when they also assert God is unique. It cannot be such and such compared to what? Unique essentially implies no comparison. Now a human body has many parts but all will themselves to exist as a human. Is the head greater than the foot? Yes. Is the head and the hand one? Yes. Does the hand do the will of the head? Yes. Even our brain is separate. Did you notice your breathing until now? Who was breathing for you before? But Is there anything that we have ever seen that cannot be also divided? Is there any one thing that does not also have two things or more behind it? That God does not have a dynamic presence is what is completely irrational to me.
weLL, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions. I am a believer and I believe in the Holy trinity. It' just that God is God and some things just can't be explained. It will just be nice to be able to explain he trinity to people without so much comotion. When I said "it is beyond our comprehension", I was refering more to the mistries of God.
But I can not separate my hand from my body and my hand continue to live, my hand is a part of me and it will die if it is separate from me. If I died my hand would die with me, it has no life apart from me (without outside intervention that is)
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jesus says that God gave him life in himself not that he had it from eternity and shares it with his Father being co-equal, it was not his before his Father gave it to him
But I can not separate my hand from my body and my hand continue to live, my hand is a part of me and it will die if it is separate from me. If I died my hand would die with me, it has no life apart from me (without outside intervention that is)
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jesus says that God gave him life in himself not that he had it from eternity and shares it with his Father being co-equal, it was not his before his Father gave it to him
Hi meerkat2,
Welcome to mortality. Do you think God's body works the same way? Its also an analogy with elements of the concept because there is no other God for comparison. I use that because most people don't know what a corpus collsum is. Its a bunch of nerve fibers between our two hemispheres. Have a look at what happens when they are severed:
The patients did not demonstrate any abnormal behavior. One even woke up from the surgery and joked that he had “a splitting headache.” A few unusual things occurred. For example, one patient reported that he was putting on some pants with one hand, and the other hand wanted to take them off. Overall, however, no ill effects were reported.
However, some amazing things were discovered when these people were studied in the laboratory. In these studies, the patients remained very still while viewing a screen and, very quickly, visual information was flashed to either their left or right visual fields. By doing this, information was presented to only one hemisphere or the other.
So, when information was presented to the left hemisphere and the person was asked, “what do you see?” they could answer. After all, the left hemisphere can talk. However, when information was presented to the right hemisphere and the person was asked what they saw, they replied that they saw nothing. The left hemisphere was being honest and the right can’t talk.
When information was presented to the left hemisphere and the person was asked to point to what they saw with their right hand they could do so. The left hemisphere controls the right hand. However, when asked to point to what they saw with their left hand, they could not. Likewise, when information was presented to the right hemisphere, they could point to it with their left hand. They could not do this with their right hand, however. When asked, “why did you point to [whatever it was]?” the left hemisphere, which controls speech but did not see what the right hemisphere saw, would either say, “I don’t know” or make up some explanation.
So is that two persons now or one? What happens if we found something else to sever? What is utterly, laughably absurd are these strict monotheistic arguments with the assumption that it is those who believe in the trinity that are irrational. These arguments have no real world examples because its yet another irrational human construct one may learn in geometry class like a point. There is "one God" but they cannot say one of what. Exodus 33 says he has a hand, a face, a back. What is it? What is God's composition? Try once to explain your position rather than pick apart another however I wouldn't bother since there is only an anti-trinity argument with nothing to take its place.
For the record I don't believe in the "trinity" though I do believe there are different parts of God as observed by us that are known as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. God is a single will that has always been and may manifest himself as he chooses to us.
I am like you I guess, I am just trying to learn and also not be deceived. I have flip flopped between "trinity" and anti because there seem to be arguments for and against, but it seems that God gave Jesus authority, life, power. To be a son means that your parent precedes you. God would not have inspired for Jesus to be called son if he did not come after himself and was infact the co-eternal in revealing the relationship to us ...... would he? - God is not the author of confusion.
I am like you I guess, I am just trying to learn and also not be deceived. I have flip flopped between "trinity" and anti because there seem to be arguments for and against, but it seems that God gave Jesus authority, life, power. To be a son means that your parent precedes you. God would not have inspired for Jesus to be called son if he did not come after himself and was infact the co-eternal in revealing the relationship to us ...... would he? - God is not the author of confusion.
"This is my beloved Son, in whom I'm well pleased... Hear Ye Him" - God
I am like you I guess, I am just trying to learn and also not be deceived. I have flip flopped between "trinity" and anti because there seem to be arguments for and against, but it seems that God gave Jesus authority, life, power. To be a son means that your parent precedes you. God would not have inspired for Jesus to be called son if he did not come after himself and was infact the co-eternal in revealing the relationship to us ...... would he? - God is not the author of confusion.
Hi meerkat2,
The important thing is to understand Jesus was God because it is clear enough he said he was. The Bible is also clear that there is one God. Two separate Gods and Christianity is polytheistic. God may not be the author of confusion but we are confused.
Job 38
Then the LORD (A)answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2"Who is this that (B)darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3"Now (C)gird up your loins like a man,
And (D)I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4"Where were you (E)when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5Who set its (F)measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6"On what (G)were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together
And all the (H)sons of God shouted for joy?
8"Or who (I)enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10And I (J)placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop'?
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The trinity.
