When God won't Listen

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by arguy1973

kinda like the woman or man who marries someone who is alot older just for their money and the things they can give them? they truly dont desire a relationship nor love that person, they are only hanging around for the benefits of that relationship..kinda like when they say "i love you"..reminds me of..for they honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me...something to think about.

Or James 4:1-3----

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

Emphasis added.



Again, I think I got thrown off by people applying the verses in the OP to the lost.

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

And I agree with that 100% but that is not what has been implied in this thread.

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

Maybe June wrongly personalized this passage when she read it and applied to someone outside the Kingdom of God. My view is that God desperately wants to hear a cry from someone(everyone) like June and that she does not have to worry about 'when God won't listen'.

Now, having said all that, I do think that there's a message here for believers. But I believe the only application here is for believers.

Do you agree with that?

I think maybe the evangelical call in the OP threw me for a loop. If the OP is written for Christians by a Christian, then I think I'm OK with it, generally speaking. However, if that's the case, then I think the evangelical end of the OP might be where June personalized it.

Does that make sense?

I think I know what you're getting at, and once again, I can only speak for myself and not for someone else. One point tho that I am thinking of and that goes along with my previous post of God's call to us... we must not take it for granted.

Let's say I am a believer who has willfully turned against God and His ways. God calls me.. as I mentioned, God calls all mankind all the time, however it seems like there are certain times in a person's life where God's call is stronger than other times, you know what I mean? Ok, I feel God's call in a real way, but I push it off.. I feel it again, but I push it off. That is where the danger is! God will always respond to my call, but as I mentioned, my call is actually in response to His call, and I have no promise that I will receive another urgent call.. I may die tomorrow.

But that's maybe off topic for this thread..

To sum it up:

If the OP's thought was that finally after repeated disobedience, God turns away and won't listen to an unbeliever's call, no.. I don't believe that to be correct, because as I said, an unbeliever's call would be a response to His call. At the same time, we can’t presume upon His grace and expect that “we can turn to Him later”.

If the OP's thought was that as Christians, we keep praying for God to help us with our troubles and trials and yet do not want to follow the direction He gives us, then yes, I believe we will find our prayers hitting the ceiling. At the same time, when we would finally respond to His call to us, and forget about our own selfish calls to Him, He will hear.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by cg81

To sum it up:

If the OP's thought was that finally after repeated disobedience, God turns away and won't listen to an unbeliever's call, no.. I don't believe that to be correct, because as I said, an unbeliever's call would be a response to His call. At the same time, we can’t presume upon His grace and expect that “we can turn to Him later”.

If the OP's thought was that as Christians, we keep praying for God to help us with our troubles and trials and yet do not want to follow the direction He gives us, then yes, I believe we will find our prayers hitting the ceiling. At the same time, when we would finally respond to His call to us, and forget about our own selfish calls to Him, He will hear.

Summed up nicely and I agree.

Thank you.

[june 7th]

It's all just way too complicated...

[Miss Blue]

Originally Posted by june 7th

It's just all way too complicated...

This thread 's complicated, that I agree with..God is not

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

Blueberry,

Since my post seems to be off the mark in this thread, may I pose a couple of questions to you?

1- What's your thoughts on this sentence from the OP: "So it is with God, if you are going to be that person who only takes and never gives, why should he listen to you? "

2- You said "Yes, the message in Zechariah is speaking collectively, but it's pretty easy to take that collective message and personalize it for individuals." Should we ever personalize a message like that for someone else or is that a word or conviction for ourselves. In other words, should I read that passage and say "God has every reason NOT to listen to me"(which is true) or "God has every reason NOT to listen to you" which, in my view, is untrue?

3- You rightly use the example of the prodigal son as a good example of how God responds and reacts to our own decisions. In my opinion, that is in contrast to the scripture used in the OP where it has been implied that God refuses to hear those who call on Him.

I understand that in the scripture the OP has posted that the people aren't really calling on God. They are using Him as a 'when all else fails' option and only coming to Him when convenient to them. That being said, I urge you to read back through the things that have been implied and said in this thread and comment a little closer on the 'theme' here.

Do you believe God gets to a point where He will won't listen to someone who calls out to Him?

Help me......

Alpha, I bolded the part of your post that seems to be the crux of the issue (at least your issue ). I'll address the other three points in a separate post. This response is off the top of my head because I don't have the time right now to look up all the Scriptures. I'll have more time in a day or two because I'll be by myself for about 10 days.

Simple answer: Yes. I believe there is a point of no return.
Fuller answer: No. God will always hear the truly repentant person who is sincerely seeking Him.

Are you confused yet?

I believe the passage in Zechariah that the OP quoted is actually talking about unbelievers. Most of the people of Israel/Judah did not have a personal relationship with God at that time even though God had made a covenant with the nation. God turned his back on the nation and allowed the pagan nations to invade and destroy; this collective punishment occurred even though there were individuals who were sincerely praying that it wouldn't. Collectively, the nation had turned it's back on God, so He turned His back on it. (Ezekiel had given a graphic example of this by hiding his face behind a piece of iron.) God did, indeed, turn His back on the nation; He also, IMO, turned his back on individuals as evidenced by the group who went to Egypt. Both the nation and the individuals had passed a point of no return because they weren't sincerely repentant and weren't truly seeking God.

Isaiah says two or three times to seek God while He may be found, implying that God's patience would wear thin and He would turn His back on the people's pleas. Ezekiel was tasked with hiding his face behind a piece of iron (?) to show that God would not hear the people's prayers. Some prophecy scholars think the Gentiles have a limited time to find God (the church age), believing that God will turn exclusively to the Jews in the last days. There does seem to be biblical support for that idea, although I'm not convinced of it's accuracy. Jeremiah 7:16 gives a sobering picture about how he deals with people once they have gone too far: “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you." His earnest followers were told not to pray for the unregenerate because God would not hear the prayer!

So, yes, I believe both individuals and nations can reach a point of no return whereby God won't hear their prayers. I will not even presume to know when that point is crossed. It's God's job to judge the nations and unbelievers, not mine. Since God knows the beginning from the end, He alone knows if the person with a hardened heart will always remain so or if that heart will be softened and answer His knock. I also sincerely doubt that unbelievers will know when they have crossed that invisible line, but Satan will certainly try to confuse them to make them think that God has turned His back on them and there is no hope. He will keep from them the knowledge that Jesus didn't come into the world to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. By God's standards, no one is righteous. Christians can claim righteousness only because we have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus that paid for our sins.

I think Scripture is abundantly clear that God will always hear the prayers of a truly repentant person. Jeremiah 29:13 states, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." James says to draw close to God and He will draw close to you. Revelation tell us that Jesus is standing at the door and knocking; if anyone hears His voice and opens the door, He will enter in. Romans states that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. There is much rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents. Jesus can be found where He's always been found; knocking on the door to our hearts. He's not the one that moves, we are.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

1- What's your thoughts on this sentence from the OP: "So it is with God, if you are going to be that person who only takes and never gives, why should he listen to you? "

I think that statement is best understood by looking at Hoosier's previous sentence which talks about the person who only asks and asks from God, but will not listen to him, will not follow him. I did a real quick Bible search on "ear" and "will not hear." There's plenty of verses to back up what Hoosier is saying here. God will not hear the person who continues to not listen to his words or his law.

This is a completely different concept from what June got out of it. A person can repent of a lifetime of not listening to and not obeying God. A person can reject God one day, but have his eyes, ears, and heart opened the next. (Saul/Paul is a good example of this!) God's judgment is based upon the current condition of the heart, not the past. It wasn't too late for the thief on the cross. He realized his life was wrong, and he was truly repentant and recognized the truth about Jesus.

2- You said "Yes, the message in Zechariah is speaking collectively, but it's pretty easy to take that collective message and personalize it for individuals." Should we ever personalize a message like that for someone else or is that a word or conviction for ourselves. In other words, should I read that passage and say "God has every reason NOT to listen to me"(which is true) or "God has every reason NOT to listen to you" which, in my view, is untrue?

God is the only righteous judge, and it is he who judges the nations and peoples of the world.

There is a difference between judging what someone says to us and judging the person. We can see if words line up with the Bible. We can't see someone's heart. We can point out what the Bible says to others, but it's up to them to do their own self-examination. I'd never presume to know how someone stands with God. I can sometimes take an educated guess based upon the person's words and actions; however, I also realize that I could be wrong.

I'm even leery of passing judgment on myself because the Bible says the heart is wicked and deceptive. Furthermore, Satan loves to accuse the Christian. The best I can do is examine my heart and my actions to see if they line up with the Bible and pray that I'll be honest with myself, see through the lies of the devil, and see myself as God sees me.

3- You rightly use the example of the prodigal son as a good example of how God responds and reacts to our own decisions. In my opinion, that is in contrast to the scripture used in the OP where it has been implied that God refuses to hear those who call on Him.

I did a post a few months back (//www.city-data.com/forum/2205455-post7.html) regarding why prayers aren't answered. I've heard many claims of people who say they were sincerely seeking God through prayer, but He didn't answer. Therefore, they claim, there is no God. However, they have presented a fallacious argument because they ignore the #1 Scriptural criteria for effective prayer--relationship.

Actually, I misapplied the story of the prodigal son. In that story, the son is obviously in relationship with his father. Although the son chose to move away from his father--away from his father's protection and provision, away from his father's guidance, away from the ability to communicate with his father--he was still his father's son. John 1:12-13 tells us how to have a relationship with God the Father: "But as many as received Him [Jesus], to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood [no one is born a Christian], nor of the will of the flesh [no amount of good works will make one a Christian], nor of the will of man [nothing man can do will make another a Christian], but of God."

God interacts differently with his children than he does with the unbelievers of the world. That's very similar to an earthly father who has a special relationship with his children although he might also love those outside his family and reach out to them. Sometimes, the earthly father might even adopt a child from outside the family, making the child a fully functional part of the family with all the benefits that entails.

The Bible is clear that God loves the people of the world and is looking for those willing to be adopted. Even though He had a covenant relationship with Israel/Judah, God chose to send Jonah to Nineveh which was an enemy, pagan, and wicked nation. Jonah didn't want the assignment because he knew God was slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness. When the people of Nineveh turned from their wicked ways, God relented from the disaster he had planned for them. When Jonah complained, God replied that there were 120,000 people in Nineveh that didn't know their right hand from their left, so he had pity on them. He not only had pity on the people, but on their livestock, too!

I guess the question, then, is whether or not God is obligated to hear those who are outside of a relationship with Him. I don't believe He is. Romans 10:13, however, offers abundant hope and a great promise: "For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Of course, that's conditioned upon belief and repentance. I'd encourage everyone to read Romans 10 because it puts much of this discussion in perspective. It also offers hope to those who haven't heard and haven't sought after God, because verse 20 states, "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."

I understand that in the scripture the OP has posted that the people aren't really calling on God. They are using Him as a 'when all else fails' option and only coming to Him when convenient to them. That being said, I urge you to read back through the things that have been implied and said in this thread and comment a little closer on the 'theme' here.

I don't know, Alpha. It seems to me that the posts in this thread have largely been on-target. June, however, saw a different message and feels there is no hope for her. With one exception, I think the Christians who have posted tried to set her straight and let her know that it's never too late to sincerely turn to God and He will listen to a sincere person no matter how much that person has rejected God up to that point.

I'm the one that has said I think there is a point of no return, but I tried to couch that in such a way as to leave no doubt that it's never too late for a person to sincerely turn to God. Since we don't have Prophets (with a capital P) today, and since God hasn't told me not to pray for someone, I assume that everyone alive still has a chance to get right with God. I certainly don't know if anyone (specific individuals) has crossed the point of no return. I can't see inside a person the way God can, so I will continue to pray for others and share.

That doesn't mean I won't shake the dust from my feet and move on when someone doesn't want to hear the gospel message. The act of shaking the dust off from my feet doesn't imply that God is finished with the person and has quit calling to him; it just means that I've finished what God called me to do. Perhaps I've planted a seed or did a little watering, but I'm not the one assigned to the harvest.

[Alpha8207]

Just a couple of comments and I'm gonna let this go.

First, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Your posts are well thought out and I know you truly seek God's face in your life and your words.

On this one, I just have to disagree with what I am 'hearing' in the message here.

I'm not going to go into great depth because I am a Christian and you are a Christian and I think any non-Christian can glean my issue from my previous posts.

With that being said.....

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I believe the passage in Zechariah that the OP quoted is actually talking about unbelievers.

I don't. Generally speaking, I can't think of non-believers calling out to God. Again, I truly believe this message is for the luke-warm....the blackslidden.....but not the non-believer. But I might be mistaken and I'm certainly open to that possibility.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I think that statement is best understood by looking at Hoosier's previous sentence which talks about the person who only asks and asks from God, but will not listen to him, will not follow him. I did a real quick Bible search on "ear" and "will not hear." There's plenty of verses to back up what Hoosier is saying here. God will not hear the person who continues to not listen to his words or his law.

Again, actions generally not done by non-believers. I'm not an unbeliever though, so maybe a lot of them do this.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

God is the only righteous judge, and it is he who judges the nations and peoples of the world.

There is a difference between judging what someone says to us and judging the person. We can see if words line up with the Bible. We can't see someone's heart. We can point out what the Bible says to others, but it's up to them to do their own self-examination. I'd never presume to know how someone stands with God. I can sometimes take an educated guess based upon the person's words and actions; however, I also realize that I could be wrong.

I'm even leery of passing judgment on myself because the Bible says the heart is wicked and deceptive. Furthermore, Satan loves to accuse the Christian. The best I can do is examine my heart and my actions to see if they line up with the Bible and pray that I'll be honest with myself, see through the lies of the devil, and see myself as God sees me.

I agree but I'm not sure you totally answered the question, but again, I know the answer for me, so it's not a big deal....to me.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

Actually, I misapplied the story of the prodigal son.

OK, I gotcha now. We're on the same page basically.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

God interacts differently with his children than he does with the unbelievers of the world. That's very similar to an earthly father who has a special relationship with his children although he might also love those outside his family and reach out to them. Sometimes, the earthly father might even adopt a child from outside the family, making the child a fully functional part of the family with all the benefits that entails.

OK, the bolded sentence above and our disagreement on who this passage is directed at sums up my issues. I totally agree with what I bolded and hopefully because I disagree with this passage being for those outside the Kingdom it sheds light on my issue.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I guess the question, then, is whether or not God is obligated to hear those who are outside of a relationship with Him. I don't believe He is. Romans 10:13, however, offers abundant hope and a great promise: "For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Of course, that's conditioned upon belief and repentance. I'd encourage everyone to read Romans 10 because it puts much of this discussion in perspective. It also offers hope to those who haven't heard and haven't sought after God, because verse 20 states, "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."

Read your first 2 sentences there.....then read your last one.

I disagree with your first but agree with your last.(ain't this 'fun'?)

Are the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins applicable here? Not only do I believe God is obliged to hear but is acutely listening for them! His response may not be what they expect, but it isn't due to the fact they are in a time 'when God does not hear'.

Again, I appreciate your post and I won't consume more time on this issue. I was wanting some clarification on intent and purpose of the OP since I really can't tell if it's posted for edification and exhortation or evangelification(new word).

Thanks again, bb. I hate to see July end, ya know?

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by june 7th

It's all just way too complicated...

Dear, sweet June. ((((((((((((.VERY BIG HUG!.))))))))))))

Blue is right. This thread may be complicated, but God's message of love and forgiveness is not.

June, I'll try to be gentle here, so please forgive me if I sound condescending. The Bible states that some issues cannot be understood by unbelievers because the correct outlook is spiritually discerned. As an unbeliever, you don't have God's Spirit to guide and teach you. (I do believe He is calling to you, though! ) You are trying to digest meat before you've even been born. Even newborn Christians can only discern certain things. The Bible says they need spiritual milk. They need to be clear on the basic concepts of Scripture before they are ready to tackle the harder issues. Even a toddler that is past the milk stage only gets meat that is cut up in small chunks. It's easier to digest, plus small chunks alleviate choking. As a child matures, he gets bigger and bigger chunks of meat until he's eventually capable of tackling a whole steak by himself.

Christians call this process "precept upon precept." Some call it laying a foundation and building on it. June, your foundation hasn't yet been properly laid. I get the impression you think you have to understand it all before you make the commitment to follow Christ. Heck, even those of us who have been Christians for decades don't understand it all, and it's certainly apparent from these forums that we don't agree on everything.

You need to step out in faith on the foundation that has been presented to you:

Thanks to Adam and Eve, all people have inherited a sin nature. God told Adam and Eve that they would die on the day they ate the fruit, and they did die a spiritual death. They knew they were unworthy to face God, so they hid whereas before this, they apparently walked freely with God in the garden. The punishment for Adam and Eve's sin was physical death, but God--in his mercy and love--provided a way for them to escape the punishment they deserved. Indeed, he provided a substitute that would stave off their physical deaths while providing a way to escape the spiritual separation.

The Bible tells us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins. Why? Because the life is in the blood. Since the punishment for sin is death, life blood had to be shed. However, God covered Adam and Eve with the skins of an animal. The animal died in their place.

This sacrificial system was in place throughout the Old Testament, and was codified in the Law of Moses. However, the Hebrew people found it impossible to keep the Law. This isn't surprising since the Mosaic Law was designed to let people know how incredibly difficult it is to live up to God's standards. Furthermore, God even indicated that the Law wasn't the important thing--a relationship with Him was! Rather than sacrifice, God desired a broken spirit [sadness because we understand we are sinners and can't reach God through our own efforts], a contrite heart [repentance, turning away from our sinful ways], understanding of Him [acknowledging there is only one true God & believing what the Bible says], and obedience [a heartfelt attempt to follow God's precepts/laws]. However, a blood sacrifice was still required.

Enter Jesus. He became the perfect sacrifice because he was the only human to ever live a perfect life, in complete submission and obedience to God the Father. Because he was perfect (he had never sinned), Jesus didn't deserve to die, but he chose death so that he could free mankind from the burden of debt. (The punishment for sin is still death, both physical and spiritual. If we don't die, we need a substitute.) The Old Testament sacrificial system was extremely tedious, requiring constant sacrifice. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, becoming mankind's substitute, and relieving us of our debt once and for all. While mankind must still suffer a physical death, we can avoid spiritual death.

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Bible tells us that if we believe this message and receive it, we have the right to be called children of God. Believing is easy--even the demons believe (and tremble)! Receiving the message, however, is a little more difficult because it involves the broken spirit, contrite heart, knowledge of God, and an obedient spirit.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation . . .

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (Broken Spirit.)

Acts 3:19 - Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. (Contrite Heart)

James 1:21 - Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (Knowledge of God)

John 14:10 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (Knowledge of God)

James 1:22 - But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (Obedience)

Romans 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Obedience)

John 14:23-24 - Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. (Obedience)

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

I don't. Generally speaking, I can't think of non-believers calling out to God. Again, I truly believe this message is for the luke-warm....the blackslidden.....but not the non-believer. But I might be mistaken and I'm certainly open to that possibility. . . .

Again, actions generally not done by non-believers. I'm not an unbeliever though, so maybe a lot of them do this.

The day before Hoosier posted this, I had a very real example of an unbeliever calling out to God over and over, yet He didn't answer her prayer. I'm not going to go into detail, but it was obvious from her prayer that she had done this over and over throughout her life, yet continued in her life as though God didn't exist. Basically, she was bargaining with God (again!), but she had not yet lived up to her end of the bargain. From her actions afterward, I can only assume that she had not been experiencing a true spirit of contrition during her prayer.

This will let you know the light in which I was seeing Hoosier's OP.

I agree but I'm not sure you totally answered the question, but again, I know the answer for me, so it's not a big deal....to me.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, I agree that we can't foist our personal application on to others. I do believe the passage in Zechariah has personal application, but I can't presume to know how it intimately applies to others because I don't know their hearts.

Read your first 2 sentences there.....then read your last one.

I disagree with your first but agree with your last.(ain't this 'fun'?)

Are the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins applicable here? Not only do I believe God is obliged to hear but is acutely listening for them! His response may not be what they expect, but it isn't due to the fact they are in a time 'when God does not hear'.

Good for you! You caught the loophole in what I was saying!!!

I absolutely agree that God is obligated to hear a truly repentant sinner's prayer.

I don't think He's the least bit obligated to hear the unbeliever who is bargaining with Him or is testing Him to prove He doesn't exist. I can probably think of other cases where God isn't obligated to hear the unbeliever's prayer, too, but you should get my drift.

Again, I appreciate your post and I won't consume more time on this issue. I was wanting some clarification on intent and purpose of the OP since I really can't tell if it's posted for edification and exhortation or evangelification(new word).

The teacher in me loves new words!

I'm not sure the intent of the OP, but I took it more as exhortation. For that matter, I'm not sure what my intent was in replying. It's just that I'd had a very unsettling night, and God kind of whispered I'd find what I was seeking on the Christianity board. The passage in Zechariah is what I needed! (I was already thinking along those lines.) You and I read the thread in different ways, hence my post.

Thanks again, bb. I hate to see July end, ya know?

Love ya!