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For exclusivists, if God is love, then why wouldn't He have found a way to save all of His creation as opposed to the few according to Luke 13? How can He allow people to suffer for all eternity for a choice made in one lifetime?
Well, you know I'm not a Universalist so I'll just answer the questions aimed at my belief.
Question 1-I don't know. But I know what the Word says and I hope you see the irony in your question. Do you believe Luke 13? If you don't, then your question stands and stands inadequately answered. If you do, then the question can be asked but the answer is 'Because God is God'. Does the answer of God being God suffice for you, Nero777?
Question 2-First, it isn't 'a' choice. It's 'choices'. Second, can you please define justice? If God is just, how else could it be? Do the questions you laid out for Universalists seem logical or just?
Hitler, Osama, Saddaam, and Lucifer, will ultimately share in the same rewards as Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, and the disciples even though these people did everything to either violate God's will or remove God from the world entirely?
I believe the origin of evil is a cornerstone for ET doctrine. The Lucifer theory is a completely false myth/church tradition. To unravel this mystery of salvation you have to go back to the root of the false religious system which created the myth.
I believe the origin of evil is a cornerstone for ET doctrine. The Lucifer theory is a completely false myth/church tradition. To unravel this mystery of salvation you have to go back to the root of the false religious system which created the myth.
And so it goes.
The root of Universalism begins by breaking down God's Word from the very beginning.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You've posted a post I'll quote both on and off the boards to confront this false teaching for a very long time.
[quote=Alpha8207;4918508]Well, you know I'm not a Universalist so I'll just answer the questions aimed at my belief.
Question 1-I don't know. But I know what the Word says and I hope you see the irony in your question. Do you believe Luke 13? If you don't, then your question stands and stands inadequately answered. If you do, then the question can be asked but the answer is 'Because God is God'. Does the answer of God being God suffice for you, Nero777?quote]
In regards to question 1, former youth pastors of mine used to ask me the very same question; in the end, I understand that "God is God" and I will never be able to comprehend the magnitude of His Being, but being a man who needs answers to cope with a harsh and unforgiving reality makes this response seem like an answer to avoid answers. I do believe Luke 13, but believing it and understanding are two completely different things and sometimes a little understanding would be helpful, it would at least remind me what the point is for us still being here.
Question 2-First, it isn't 'a' choice. It's 'choices'. Second, can you please define justice? If God is just, how else could it be? Do the questions you laid out for Universalists seem logical or just?
For question 2, justice means that the person who has committed the offense is honestly and rightfully accused for the crime; they are then sentenced a valid form of punishment to correct the problem and then reparations are made to the victim or the victim's family and friends. Naturally, this is the human understanding of justice which has its own set of preferences, some which are fair and others that aren't. In regards to the second part of the question, I don't really know; I just know that there is an all powerful Being out there called God whose ways are much higher than my own. To say that means that He must have the ability to rise higher than any standard I can conceive and be able to find ways to resolve issues that we couldn't ever think of ourselves. I am an exclusivists because that is what studies in Bible have shown for me, but there are times I honestly wish there was a better way, an easier way than what any true Christian has laid out before them. Do I like it? No way, but God made Himself a place in my life and no matter how hard I try, I can never break away from Him or the reality He has shown me. In regards to the last part of the question, I don't see any more logic or justice in the universalists view than I do in the exclusivists view. Neither side seems completely fair and logical; both have their pros and cons.
The root of Universalism begins by breaking down God's Word from the very beginning.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You've posted a post I'll quote both on and off the boards to confront this false teaching for a very long time.
Alpha, you are very welcome
Concerning the devil: "He was a liar and murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, for the truth is not in him."
As for the origins of the Lucifer myth you can quote this too if you like:
The KJV followed Jerome's lead from the Vulgate - an early-5th-century translation of the Bible into Latin from Greek (note: NOT from the original Hebrew). In Jerome's translation - "Lucifer" occurs in Isaiah 14:12-14 as a translation of the Greek word heosphorus ("dawn-bearer"), an epithet of Venus. The actual Hebrew text says הילל בן שחר (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar."
Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Helel was the god of the morning star and his father was Shahar, god of the dawn. Some translations of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" American Standard Version translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word Ben as son and the Hebrew word Shahar as "of the morning."
In Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, referring the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate by referencing Babylon's own mythological accounts of the planet Venus' fall from grace from among the gods.
There is just centuries of Christian tradition (non-biblical) attached to the subject and the obvious meaning has been covered over in favor of things which make great science fiction but very poor theology.
I believe the origin of evil is a cornerstone for ET doctrine. The Lucifer theory is a completely false myth/church tradition. To unravel this mystery of salvation you have to go back to the root of the false religious system which created the myth.
The question is where to actually start looking for this myth? If the Lucifer theory is a myth, then that requires us looking back to the beginning of the Bible and the issue in the garden. Was the interaction with the serpent a legitimate encounter with the devil or was it something the early church leaders added to support the theory? What evidence do we have to support this claim?
The question is where to actually start looking for this myth? If the Lucifer theory is a myth, then that requires us looking back to the beginning of the Bible and the issue in the garden. Was the interaction with the serpent a legitimate encounter with the devil or was it something the early church leaders added to support the theory? What evidence do we have to support this claim?
I am not denying the existence of an evil one, I'm denying the idea that an archangel fell from God's presence and sneaked into the garden to possess a snake and facilitate the eating of the 'fruit'. The tree contained the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent was placed in the garden by God. We don't need an angel (Hebrew: messenger) to fall and get things rolling downhill. Both Isaiah and Ezekiel are addressing Babylonian kings. All else is speculation and theory and most of all: tradition.
Isa 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! (NIV)
Ezek 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god. (NIV)
One of the problems some people have when it comes to these verses is that they have a hard time distinguishing poetic language from literal language. So when they see something like:
Ezek 28:14-15 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (NIV)
They jump from the subject previously identified (that being Tyre) to a literalistic who was a guardian cherub. They then think the answer must be Satan. But then when their literalistic approach falls apart in the next verse they return to the original subject matter (Tyre).
Ezek 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
It no longer works to well to say that Satan was expelled from heaven because of his widespread trade and violence. When you use context as your primary guide to interpreting the Bible it is impossible to make these verses refer to Satan. Also there is no Biblical statements which identify Satan as a guradian cherub, that is produced when the reader inserts their preconcieved idea into the verse.
When we read the chapters around the references used by those who support the Lucifer myth, we see that in both Isaiah and Ezekiel they are prophecies dealing with other nations. Many with equally poetic language. For instance:
Ezek 31:2-9 "Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his hordes: "'Who can be compared with you in majesty? 3 Consider Assyria, once a cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches overshadowing the forest; it towered on high, its top above the thick foliage...8 The cedars in the garden of God could not rival it, nor could the pine trees equal its boughs, nor could the plane trees compare with its branches-- no tree in the garden of God could match its beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God. (NIV)
In regards to question 1, former youth pastors of mine used to ask me the very same question; in the end, I understand that "God is God" and I will never be able to comprehend the magnitude of His Being, but being a man who needs answers to cope with a harsh and unforgiving reality makes this response seem like an answer to avoid answers. I do believe Luke 13, but believing it and understanding are two completely different things and sometimes a little understanding would be helpful, it would at least remind me what the point is for us still being here.
I can assure you no Christian is 'still here' to focus on Hell and what happens when we die.
For a Christian, you take the day God has given you and use it for good.
I wonder why we see so few threads on Heaven? Could it be we like to focus on the negative?
If you're a saved Christian, what are you going to do today for the Lord?
You can say the answer is an answer to avoid answering, that's totally your call.
I'd say the answer is an answer that should help you move on to other aspects of the Christian faith.
I'm done arguing 'for' Hell, the points have been made.
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