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Universalism is never part of the Church's Bible view. Yet Hell is never emphasized that much ever since Paul. It doesn't mean that the hell doctrine is denied. That's the difference.
Does anybody understand the difference between translations and what God actually says? Some things, really whatever is important, you should look up. It isn't too much work with these computers. I had no choice years ago, but I still look up stuff in a great big hardback book: Strong's concordance. I keep one at my desk with the computer, though I use several online Bible reference sites a lot.
------------------------ WHICH BIBLE?
While the King James Version has "hell" 31 times in the Old Testament, most new translations don't ever use the word "hell" in the Old Testament, not even once. A partial list is with: The New American Standard Bible Revised Standard Version, New Revised Standard Version, New Living Translation, Amplified, New International Version, New Century Version, Concordant Literal, New American Bible. These never use 'hell' in translating from the Hebrew.
Let me add how often "hell" happens in the New Testament in the following versions: The King James Version 23 times, The New American Standard Bible 13 times, Revised Standard Version 12, New Revised Standard Version 12 times, New Living Translation 13 times, Amplified 13 times, New International Version 14 times, New Century Version 12 times, Concordant Literal 0 times, New American Bible (Roman Catholic) 0 times.
------------------------ What's so hard aknowledging we have translation problems that anyone with enough intelligence to read should easily recognize? My post #3 on page 1 of this thread is basically Bible facts. It's not too hard to read. Here's a quote from it concerning a few Bible facts:
Hell is an English word pasted over several underlying words in the original languages. God intended something by saying "hades" and in other places he meant something else by saying "geehena" or He wouldn't have spelled them differently. There is nothing in Scripture that says "tartarus" is "hades," or "hades" is "gee'na," and the like. This recreating "hell" into a single category is what has been done by our translations, not by the originals. To this category has been added interpretations concerning the lake of fire which the most symbolic book of the Bible alone mentions, although it is never called "hell."
The following proves many Bible translations do NOT contain Hell (copy and paste to your browser):
tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.
Funny.
I love this.
When this subject comes up and I tell a seeker to read their bible the Universalists ALWAYS scramble then to show their true colors and assure that God has been unable to put a good translation in our hands.
I didn't qualify my advice to the poster, just simply said pick up a bible and read.
Why is that bad advice to you?
I know why.
Because you know as well as I do exactly what the conclusion will be. And it won't be that hell is some temporary correctional institute that the Universalist believes it is.
It is because you truly know what God's Word says on this subject and so you take an answer of "Read the Word and find out for yourself" and immediately try and stop that from happening.
That should be all the evidence needed to refute Universalism.
Afraid of the light?
I have faith in the God of Creation that He is able to do all things, including putting a more than adequate version(or versions) of His Word in my hand and the hand of the poster who's seeking the Truth on this subject.
When this subject comes up and I tell a seeker to read their bible the Universalists ALWAYS scramble then to show their true colors and assure that God has been unable to put a good translation in our hands.
So you don't see that Mr. King James' people translating 'grave' as 'hell' 31 times and 'grave' the rest of the time (1 pit) is a problem? I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I didn't qualify my advice to the poster, just simply said pick up a bible and read.
Why is that bad advice to you?
I know why.
Because you know as well as I do exactly what the conclusion will be. And it won't be that hell is some temporary correctional institute that the Universalist believes it is.
That wasn't the point. The point is that when you look at the Hebrew and Greek it says grave instead of hell in almost all cases and Gahenna in the other cases. That's why the 'H' word is go bye bye You know this by now, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
It is because you truly know what God's Word says on this subject and so you take an answer of "Read the Word and find out for yourself" and immediately try and stop that from happening.
We're going to stop people from reading the bible? Wow! We are powerful!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
That should be all the evidence needed to refute Universalism.
Right, we'll get our doctrine through! We'll destroy all the bibles and take down the internet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Afraid of the light?
Afraid of an unbiased translation of the Hebrew and Greek? Check out Young's literal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I have faith in the God of Creation that He is able to do all things, including putting a more than adequate version(or versions) of His Word in my hand and the hand of the poster who's seeking the Truth on this subject.
Well, I'll agree He's able - although He did not place it in the hands of the masses for many many hundreds of years. Interesting, no? Why do you think it took Him so long? Do you think it was because He had the RCC to show His love to the world in the meantime?
Traditions die HARD Alpha. Truth is - there is no mention of 'hell' in the old testament at all. Every manuscript bears this out. Just a plain 'ol grave like Genesis 3 describes (dust you are and to dust you shall return). How do you explain that? Saving the 'best' till last? Saving Gahenna until it was time to really lower the boom, or, errr, I mean - save the world?
P.S. If you are amused on your side of the equation I can assure you I am equally (or more) amused on this side
Last edited by firstborn888; 08-27-2008 at 04:55 AM..
So you don't see that Mr. King James' people translating 'grave' as 'hell' 31 times and 'grave' the rest of the time (1 pit) is a problem? I do.
I've been reading from at least 5 different translations this week and they all say Hell. Hell isn't a KJV-only issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
That wasn't the point. The point is that when you look at the Hebrew and Greek it says grave instead of hell in almost all cases and Gahenna in the other cases. That's why the 'H' word is go bye bye You know this by now, no?
My issue is not in 'grave' or 'hell' both of which Christ defeated. My issue is 'eternal'. Forever means forever, not just in convenient circumstances that meet your fancy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
We're going to stop people from reading the bible? Wow! We are powerful!
The poster was responding to my encouragement to read the Bible. Poke fun, let the sarcasm fly, whatever you see fit. The post(s) stand for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
Right, we'll get our doctrine through! We'll destroy all the bibles and take down the internet
Destroying the bible is what I have seen Universalist after Universalsit try and do. So....
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
Afraid of an unbiased translation of the Hebrew and Greek? Check out Young's literal.
OK, I think I shall:
And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;
and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame. Luke 16:22-24
Nothing there about Hell, eh? Want more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
Well, I'll agree He's able - although He did not place it in the hands of the masses for many many hundreds of years. Interesting, no? Why do you think it took Him so long? Do you think it was because He had the RCC to show His love to the world in the meantime?
Apparently you don't think God's aided any interpreters since 1898. I disagree. I think the KJV(1611), the NIV(1978), the NASB(1995-updated 1901 version), and many others are wonderful interpretations. And, again, the version you referred me to has more than one reference to Hell, so.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
Traditions die HARD Alpha. Truth is - there is no mention of 'hell' in the old testament at all. Every manuscript bears this out. Just a plain 'ol grave like Genesis 3 describes (dust you are and to dust you shall return). How do you explain that? Saving the 'best' till last? Saving Gahenna until it was time to really lower the boom, or, errr, I mean - save the world?
There was no mention of Hell because salvation FROM Hell had not yet been provided. Remember the verses in I Peter where Jesus went and preached to the spirits in captivity? As far as your joking and mocking and 'lowering the boom' comments, it appalls me to see you, as a Christian, talk this issue so lightly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
P.S. If you are amused on your side of the equation I can assure you I am equally (or more) amused on this side
Amused?
Hardly.
See here's the deal:
I don't take false teachers and wolves in sheep clothing lightly and, without a doubt, one of us is both.
If it's me, that's not amusing.
If it's you, that's not amusing.
God holds us accountable for preaching and teaching a false gospel and something counter to what Christ Jesus taught. One of us is guilty of this very serious offense.
I don't find that amusing at all, regardless of which one of us is correct and which one of us is incorrect.
Pray for mercy for me in my error, I'll do the same for you.
Pray for mercy for me in my error, I'll do the same for you.
Prayer is not needed for you, Alpha, because you're not in error.
Being away for a while and coming back to read all of these crazy doctrines out there (whew!!) has instilled even more in me the knowledge that we are definitely living in the end of days.
You keep speaking the truth, Alpha!!! And don't apologize for it.
Prayer is not needed for you, Alpha, because you're not in error.
Being away for a while and coming back to read all of these crazy doctrines out there (whew!!) has instilled even more in me the knowledge that we are definitely living in the end of days.
You keep speaking the truth, Alpha!!! And don't apologize for it.
Amen!!! And when I see these things happening it strengthen my faith knowing I have seen and do hear the voice of God!!!! As Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice. And it is calling us home....
These words below are scary for the reason is, I hear the same voice that mock Christ in the wilderness and when He was on the cross!!!
Quote:
I can assure you I am equally (or more) amused on this side
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 08-27-2008 at 02:10 PM..
Yes, it does. Whether we choose to acknowledge its existance or not does not mean it's not real.
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) 
We are powerful! 
