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Old 10-24-2008, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,577,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Neither one of you have provided ANY evidence to show where the name Jehovah was originated.

We tried so hard, Ren. But you don't want to hear it. I tried referring you to encyclopedias, reference works, a brochure printed the WTS that contains numerous references. I don't believe you care where it originated. But even so, I'm going to post these references, just so you know I'm not ignoring your well-worn complaints:


[i][In The Mysterious Name of Y.H.W.H., page 74, Dr. M. Reisel said that the “vocalisation of the Tetragrammaton must originally have been YeHūàH or YaHūàH
/I]

Canon D. D. Williams of Cambridge held that the “evidence indicates, nay almost proves, that Jāhwéh was not the true pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton .*.*. The Name itself was probably JĀHÔH.”—Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft (Periodical for Old Testament Knowledge), 1936, Volume 54, page 269.

In the glossary of the French Revised Segond Version, page 9, the following comment is made: “The pronunciation Yahvé used in some recent translations is based on a few ancient witnesses, but they are not conclusive. If one takes into account personal names that include the divine name, such as the Hebrew name of the prophet Elijah (Eliyahou) the pronunciation might just as well be Yaho or Yahou.”


In 1749 the German Bible scholar Teller told of some different pronunciations of God’s name he had read: “Diodorus from Sicily, Macrobius, Clemens Alexandrinus, Saint Jerome and Origenes wrote Jao; the Samaritans, Epiphanius, Theodoretus, Jahe, or Jave; Ludwig Cappel reads Javoh; Drusius, Jahve; Hottinger, Jehva; Mercerus, Jehovah; Castellio, Jovah; and le Clerc, Jawoh, or Javoh.”

[i][Forms of the divine name in different languages, indicating international acceptance of the form Jehovah

Awabakal - Yehóa

Bugotu - Jihova

Cantonese - Yehwowah

Danish - Jehova

Dutch - Jehovah

Efik - Jehovah

English - Jehovah

Fijian - Jiova

Finnish - Jehova

French - Jéhovah

Futuna - Ihova

German - Jehova

Hungarian - Jehova

Igbo - Jehova

Italian - Geova

Japanese - Ehoba

Maori - Ihowa

Motu - Iehova

Mwala-Malu - Jihova

Narrinyeri - Jehovah

Nembe - Jihova

Petats - Jihouva

Polish - Jehowa

Portuguese - Jeová

Romanian - Iehova

Samoan - Ieova

Sotho - Jehova

Spanish - Jehová

Swahili - Yehova

Swedish - Jehova

Tahitian - Iehova

Tagalog - Jehova

Tongan - Jihova

Venda - Yehova

Xhosa - uYehova

Yoruba - Jehofah

Zulu - uJehova/I]

Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Alten Testament (Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament), in Volume 3, column 538, says: “Thus some 19 documentary evidences of the Tetragrammaton in the form jhwh testify in this regard to the reliability of the M[asoretic] T[ext]; more can be expected, above all from the Arad-Archives.”—Translated from German.
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,577,950 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
There are Christians in Iraq who are being crucified "literally"

We Christians here in the West go through nothing but hurt feelings and name calling.
I appreciate that. But since we view every Jehovah's Witness worldwide as our brother, it is difficutlt for us to hear about their persecution no matter where they live. The ones in Georgia (Russia) have only recently come out from under intense political persecution. And brothers in Africa are still being murdered and imprisoned for their refusal to carry a political party card.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 16,585,696 times
Reputation: 1009
I dont want to hear it?

Why won't the JW admit that the word Jehovah was originated from the Catholics?

Also, why do your articles state 'probably' 'must have'
What happened to absolute words?

1. You still haven't proved that IT IS Jehovah.
2. You can't prove where it originated from.
3. Why are you using Catholic references when JW do not recognize the Catholic Church?
4. All of your findings are fairly recent which makes it even less credible.

Don't you have any documents/articles to show Jehovah was the name around Jesus time or somewhere near?

Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenevada View Post
We tried so hard, Ren. But you don't want to hear it. I tried referring you to encyclopedias, reference works, a brochure printed the WTS that contains numerous references. I don't believe you care where it originated. But even so, I'm going to post these references, just so you know I'm not ignoring your well-worn complaints:


[In The Mysterious Name of Y.H.W.H., page 74, Dr. M. Reisel said that the “vocalisation of the Tetragrammaton must originally have been YeHūàH or YaHūàH
/I]

Canon D. D. Williams of Cambridge held that the “evidence indicates, nay almost proves, that Jāhwéh was not the true pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton .*.*. The Name itself was probably JĀHÔH.”—Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft (Periodical for Old Testament Knowledge), 1936, Volume 54, page 269.

In the glossary of the French Revised Segond Version, page 9, the following comment is made: “The pronunciation Yahvé used in some recent translations is based on a few ancient witnesses, but they are not conclusive. If one takes into account personal names that include the divine name, such as the Hebrew name of the prophet Elijah (Eliyahou) the pronunciation might just as well be Yaho or Yahou.”


In 1749 the German Bible scholar Teller told of some different pronunciations of God’s name he had read: “Diodorus from Sicily, Macrobius, Clemens Alexandrinus, Saint Jerome and Origenes wrote Jao; the Samaritans, Epiphanius, Theodoretus, Jahe, or Jave; Ludwig Cappel reads Javoh; Drusius, Jahve; Hottinger, Jehva; Mercerus, Jehovah; Castellio, Jovah; and le Clerc, Jawoh, or Javoh.”


[i]Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Alten Testament (Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament), in Volume 3, column 538, says: “Thus some 19 documentary evidences of the Tetragrammaton in the form jhwh testify in this regard to the reliability of the M[asoretic] T[ext]; more can be expected, above all from the Arad-Archives.”—Translated from German.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 16,585,696 times
Reputation: 1009
Again....your 'Hebrew professors' textbook isn't going to fly when you easily pull things online.

You say the Jews said it all the time. Please cite your source.
I have cited the Jewish Encyclopedia which you 'tried' to use.

Even your Watchtower magazine states that the High Priest says it once per year during Yom Kippur.
Are you going to deny it now?
Then you claim the reason why Jews didnt use the name was because they were superstitious.
Make up your mind....either they said it or they didnt.


You say the 'HEBREW' scholars yet you provide no evidence.
I hope they're going to be actual Jews not someone who took up Hebrew 101 in college.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 16,585,696 times
Reputation: 1009
You call a disagreence persecution? lol

What do you call concentration camps then?

Do you know what the word 'hate' means?
Are you saying because we 'disagree' that we 'hate' you?

OMG

You should be ashamed of yourself comparing yourself to people that are tortured and murdered everyday because of their beliefs.
That is what HATE is.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenevada View Post
What do you consider persecution? I would say we are a persecuted people...I should think it evident from the very way in which people agree w/ me on this thread w/out reservation UNTIL they realize I'm a JW, only to diligently back peddle when they realize I am. The churches breed such a negative attitude about us that people literally are fearful to agree on even the most basic bible truths. Our children are ostracized for refusal to salute the flag or celebrate the holidays, things that we, as Americans, should be able to decide w/out pressure since we live in a 'free' country. No, we're not the only ones who are persecuted but we are definitely among the number. I can't help but call to mind the scripture in John that states

'If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19*If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. 20*Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also'

Persecution, while difficult, also assures us that we are on the right track.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,577,950 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
I dont want to hear it?

Why won't the JW admit that the word Jehovah was originated from the Catholics?

Also, why do your articles state 'probably' 'must have'
What happened to absolute words?

1. You still haven't proved that IT IS Jehovah.
2. You can't prove where it originated from.
3. Why are you using Catholic references when JW do not recognize the Catholic Church?
4. All of your findings are fairly recent which makes it even less credible.

Don't you have any documents/articles to show Jehovah was the name around Jesus time or somewhere near?

Thanks
1. These are not 'articles' they are books...please read what I post thoroughly so that you don't sound obtuse And any reference works that speak in absolutes would not be trustworthy as I'm sure you know. Look at the ones you posted yourself.

2. I do not know nor do I care what the religious affiliation of these scholars is. JW accept the research and studies of all types of scholars-looking at their credentials as opposed to their beliefs. I do not know why you feel we don't recognize the Catholic church; I actually have no idea what that means.

3. I do not know or particulary care if the name was originally pronounced Jehovah. It is uncertain how it was originally pronounced, as has been THOROUGHLY discussed. But that is the 'familiar' and accepted prononciation by the scholars mentioned above BY NAME as well as many others. Most people do not pronounce Hebrew names exactly as they should be,as I'm sure you know. Pronouncing a name differently does not change the meaning of that name, just at Jesus in Spanish is pronounced 'Hay-soos' etc.

4. THe tetragrammeton appears in the texts that Jesus read and quoted from in the NT. He therefore would have pronounced it himself on several occasions.

5. If you look back, I also quoted the Jewish ENcyclopedia and referenced page numbers as well. But in addition to that, I supplied reference works by other scholars as well, whose credentials you can no doubt research. I have cited my sources which you have completely ignored. The Textbook from the Hebrew teacher is not known to me. So you're right; I can't supply it.

6. You seem very prejudice of anyone outside the jewish faith. You don't feel it's possible for someone who is not a jew to learn Hebrew? Accurately? I find that very very sad.

And there, I forgot I promised not to talk to you anymore. We'll give it another shot I suppose. Let's see if you can keep it respectful. For all you know, I may be a matronly granny so 'mind your elders'.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,577,950 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post

What do you call concentration camps then?
Calm down my friend. Persecution comes in many forms, including mild prejudice, which was the point I was making. I was also commenting on the general negativity bred by the churches towards the Witnesses.

However, since you bring up the concentration camps: Are you aware the Jehovah's Witnesses were in the same camps the Jews were? Did you know that Hitler promised to 'abolish' them from existence, just like the Jews? Did you know that, unlike the Jews who were hated for their race, the Jehovah's Witnesses were there by CHOICE? All they had to do was sign a statement renouncing their beliefs...hardly any did this. Therefore, they suffered the same unspeakable things that the Jews suffered...torture and death. Visit the holocaust museum and see for yourself.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 16,585,696 times
Reputation: 1009
My points were that you were defending the other poster who is stating that you guys are getting persecuted AFTER reading this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenevada View Post
Calm down my friend. Persecution comes in many forms, including mild prejudice, which was the point I was making. I was also commenting on the general negativity bred by the churches towards the Witnesses.

However, since you bring up the concentration camps: Are you aware the Jehovah's Witnesses were in the same camps the Jews were? Did you know that Hitler promised to 'abolish' them from existence, just like the Jews? Did you know that, unlike the Jews who were hated for their race, the Jehovah's Witnesses were there by CHOICE? All they had to do was sign a statement renouncing their beliefs...hardly any did this. Therefore, they suffered the same unspeakable things that the Jews suffered...torture and death. Visit the holocaust museum and see for yourself.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 16,585,696 times
Reputation: 1009


Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I must say...
I stepped away from the computer for a day and am shocked to see that this thread has turned so negative. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, JW's are persecuted (as well as others) all the time.

renriq- your questions have been addressed gracefully and intelligently by Alice. I too responded with biblical references and your explanantion was 'bad translation'.

We disagree. You'll be alright...
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,577,950 times
Reputation: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
My points were that you were defending the other poster who is stating that you guys are getting persecuted AFTER reading this thread.

Not sure what you're talking about but OK. My comments still stand.

Okay, just saw your reference to beeveenh's post. Yeah, you just assumed I was defending her I think. I was actually responding to a comment made my Fundamentalist about persecution in this country.
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