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I have a question! I bet you all thought I'd never ask, huh?
In 1 Corinthians Chapter 9 Verses 19-27, I believe it is Paul (or was it Peter??) speaking and the part that struck me the most was this:
Verse 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
Verse 21 To them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are without law.
Verse 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Now, the way I understand these verses as well as the context of the background in which they are said is that if one is to preach the gospel, win the hearts and minds of Christ they must "become a Jew, gain the Jew, etc..."
So, the way I see this is that if you're off in some jungle preaching the gospel, you would want to come unto the people as the people are. Wear their clothes, eat their food, speak their language and essentially be unto them as they are in order to win their hearts and minds.
Now, I have a question. How does this stand in light of a person who doesn't believe such as myself? For, to walk with me, and to "become a Troop, gain a Troop, etc..." a believer must put oneself in the position of not believing at all. How does one reconcile this? Especially in light of the fact that Verse 19 states this:
Verse 19 - For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
Now, if one is a servant unto all, this I presume would also include me, than how does one go about "yoking" with me, the yokel, in order to gain my "spiritual trust" without compromising your own beliefs? Because you can wear the same clothes as me, talk the same language as me, eat the same food as me but in the end that doesn't mean I even believe there is a God to begin with.
So, how do you "yoke" yourself with me, put yourself in my shoes, walk my walk, talk my talk, and eat my food without compromising your belief - because I don't see how these two levels of stark contrast find a middle ground.
Furthermore, I don't see how one can be a servant to all and still rescind to laws stating one must not "yoke" themselves with non-believers.
This is similar to missionaries' stories of "having to feed their stomachs before we could feed their souls". There's a measure of trust that must be earned when preaching to people of unfamiliar relations.
Of course, it's not a "cold call" when the Spirit arranges the meeting.
lol I guess I would need to know more about you, GCS. Do we have the same interests? Hobbies? Enough to carry on conversations...grow a friendship?
The more time you spend with someone, the more you learn about them. Maybe your hypothetical best friend has Christian beliefs. What if one day there is something you've seen in their life that you think it good and ask them about it...they tell you their motivation was a Biblical passage.
It might surprise you if religious matters hadn't come up before, but would it be such a turn off?
Hmmmm, that may fall under Peter's statement that some of the things Paul wrote are hard to understand????
Little elmer's first two sentences cover it pretty well.
lol I guess I would need to know more about you, GCS. Do we have the same interests? Hobbies? Enough to carry on conversations...grow a friendship?
The more time you spend with someone, the more you learn about them. Maybe your hypothetical best friend has Christian beliefs. What if one day there is something you've seen in their life that you think it good and ask them about it...they tell you their motivation was a Biblical passage.
It might surprise you if religious matters hadn't come up before, but would it be such a turn off?
Ahhh.... Ok... I see what you're getting at but this is where I often feel that believers have a hard time relating to me and I don't think it's their fault - it's just an apparent pitfall due to the contrasting opinions.
What I don't think you understand is that even if you and I were best friends, shared everything together, and had the same interests but you were a believer and I was not - even if I were miserably depressed, wretched and going out of my wits - I could not look at someone and say to myself "Perhaps what they believe is true because they're happy."
I think that in order to understand where my non-belief comes from, one must actually have to become a non-believer and that's what I am talking about in my original post. Because I don't think many believers really quite get where it is we are coming from and that is the problem, the pitfall if you will, in the situation.
What seems logical to you and so matter-of-factly evident, may seem absurd or even illogical to me or vice versa. Where you see God I may see nature. Or where you see a miracle, I may see mathematical probabilities (because that's how I am wired - I can't get around that, I've been that way my whole life). Where one sees the handiwork in the majesty of the universe, I think of nucleosynthetics, singularities, and red-shifts. That's the fundamental difference. How does one come to my level of understanding - i.e. - "become a Troop" before they convince me?
Because for me it is not an emotional appeal that will ever get me to believe. I am very convinced that those who believe simply because they like the way another person was living their life are only believing due to wish-thinking and not reality. They wish their life was better so they take on these amalgamations and beliefs to convince themselves what they believe is true. But that doesn't work for me. It simply has no bearing or reality on how or what I determine truth and separate it from fictional wish-thinking. So, how does one come to my level to convince me to believe? Because you're only going to be able to do it with evidence and evidence that is contrived in a scientific manner. How does one walk that walk, talk that talk, and yoke that yokel without compromising their own faith?
The goals of Paul's life were to glorify God and bring people to Christ. He stayed free of any philosophical position or material entanglement that might side track him, while he strictly disciplined himself to carry out his goal. Paul gives several important principles for ministry, find common ground with those you come in contact with, avoid a know it all attitude, make others feel accepted, be sensitive to their needs and concerns and these principles are just as valid for us today as they were for Paul.
The goals of Paul's life were to glorify God and bring people to Christ. He stayed free of any philosophical position or material entanglement that might side track him, while he strictly disciplined himself to carry out his goal. Paul gives several important principles for ministry, find common ground with those you come in contact with, avoid a know it all attitude, make others feel accepted, be sensitive to their needs and concerns and these principles are just as valid for us today as they were for Paul.
That's an interesting answer, ILNC, especially the bolded part, and an aspect of many believers lives that seems.... Hmmmmm.... How should I say this....... R-A-R-E.
Ahhh.... Ok... I see what you're getting at but this is where I often feel that believers have a hard time relating to and I don't think it's their fault - it's just an apparent pitfall due to the contrasting opinions.
What I don't think you understand is that even if you and I were best friends, shared everything together, and had the same interests but you were a believer and I was not - even if I were miserably depressed, wretched and going out of my wits - I could not look at someone and say to myself "Perhaps what they believe is true because they're happy."
I think that in order to understand where my non-belief comes from, one must actually have to become a non-believer and that's what I am talking about in my original post. Because I don't think many believers really quite get where it is we are coming from and that is the problem, the pitfall if you will, in the situation.
What seems logical to you and so matter-of-factly evident, may seem absurd or even illogical to me or vice versa. Where you see God I may see nature. Or where you see a miracle, I may see mathematical probabilities (because that's how I am wired - I can't get around that, I've been that way my whole life). Where one sees the handiwork in the majesty of the universe, I think of nucleosynthetics, singularities, and red-shifts. That's the fundamental difference. How does one come to my level of understanding - i.e. - "become a Troop" before they convince me?
Because for me it is not an emotional appeal that will ever get me to believe. I am very convinced that those who believe simply because they like the way another person was living their life are only believing due to wish-thinking and not reality. They wish their life was better so they take on these amalgamations and beliefs to convince themselves what they believe is true. But that doesn't work for me. It simply has no bearing or reality on how or what I determine truth and separate it from fictional wish-thinking. So, how does one come to my level to convince me to believe? Because you're only going to be able to do it with evidence and evidence that is contrived in a scientific manner. How does one walk that walk, talk that talk, and yoke that yokel without compromising their own faith?
All right. Got it. Thanks for being patient! lol
I'm going to think on this. I haven't always believed. I didn't grow up going to church or anything like that. I was an adult (barely) when I found salvation (did you cringe when I said that? lol sorry).
I wonder if I can think as you. I've never had a problem with the scientific aspects of believing or not believing. I know I could think as a non believer would...been there. Also, I've seen browbeating Christians smacking non believers over their heads with their harsh words about getting saved...so I could definitely think from that point of view, too.
I doubt I'll come up with a good answer for you, but I'll give it a shot. Be back later.
That's an interesting answer, ILNC, especially the bolded part, and an aspect of many believers lives that seems.... Hmmmmm.... How should I say this....... R-A-R-E.
Yes, you're right, sadly it does seem rare with some Christians. I try hard to to fall into that category.
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