Did Jesus lie II (what did the "inspired" writers lead people to believe?) (hell, churches)
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In some of the more charismatic churches, there is the belief that folks in their churches speaking in tongues, having "visions" and dreams and proclaiming prophecies are indicators that we are living in the "last days." They base this belief on an alleged prophecy found in the Old Testament book of Joel where we find these words in its 2 chapter and 28th to 32nd verses:
Quote:
And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
“ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved...
Keep in mind that for some modern Christians, the "signs" mentioned in the first few verses are being fulfilled now (some refer to it as "the latter rain") and so it is only a matter of time before the other cosmic signs follow in keeping with chapters like Matthew 24 and portions of the book of Revelation where stars will fall and sun and moon will be darkened.
Preterist has been campaigning for quite some time now that the prophecies some Christians are waxing euphoric about today which are supposedly happening to precede "the rapture," have in fact, all been fulfilled already. Jesus already came back, the preterist says. The futurist says the prophecies are for today and have only started being fulfilled within recent history, notably since the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and thus Jesus' return is still future.
Now with all the scriptures flying around the place to support both sides in the other thread, no one mentioned Acts chapter 2. Note carefully that in verses 16 to 21, Peter basic tells the gathered crowd that he and his co-believers were fulfillment examples of Joel's prophecies and thus the "those days" (read: last days) were in effect. Also take careful note that in Joel's prophecy he says nothing about the "last days" but Peter begins his speech claiming that HIS day were the last based on the assumption that Joel's prophecy appears to be speakig about the end of time when he mentions the coming of "the day of the Lord." The Old Testament prophets also thought a time was soon to arrive in their era when God was going to tear up the place but that is another subject.
It is evident the early Christians believed they were indeed living in the last days and this is consistent with other New Testament passages AND consistent ever since then with subsequent generations of Christians up to this very day, each believing that THEY are the "this generation" Jesus is said to have spoken of. It is also not surprising (as with cults today) to notice the early Christians stripped themselves of worldly pleasures or did not seek any because they believed Jesus was soon to appear/come back (why stack up when Jesus is coming back any day now to end it all anyway?)
The apologist might object by saying, "well Peter's day was not really the last days, as in the actual end of time. It was just the start of the last days" even though there is no evidence presented to give us the impression the early Christians thought of any time well beyond their own. As a result of this thinking, we have had about 2,000 years of "last days" and still counting or only 2 days so far according to God's mysterious "prophetic clock" that only works with prophecies.
"Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8 (Hosea 6:2)
"Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8 (Hosea 6:2)
Hi Stirrs,
That scripture, when placed in its correct perspective actually proves that it was used to defend a weak position than it is/was actual reality.
It came up in the Epistle of Peter when it was evident critics were starting to question the noticeable long wait time Christians were experiencing in their waiting for Jesus. In an apparent effort to dispel impatience and possible questioning from in the ranks, a scripture such as the one you quoted was used to explain away the delay.
The other reason why the scripture is highly suspect is because the Epistle goes on to say that the only reason why Jesus had not yet return was because "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" hence the 1,000 years = 1 day equation. Is that so? Consider the many who have perished ("without Christ") over the past 2,000 years. Far less would have done so had Jesus come back 2,000 years ago I would think.
"Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8 (Hosea 6:2)
Greetings, StirringWaters: Are you suggesting that this verse negates all the time statements of the NT?
The meaning of 2 Peter 3:8 is not that with man and within his time frame one day equals a thousand years and a thousand years equals one day! Note that the verse does not say that. It clearly establishes that it is "with the Lord." It also establishes that one days is AS a thousand years, and a thousand years AS one day! The whole point of this passage is the faithfulness of God. He exists outside of time--He is not bound by it. BUT when He decrees that something will take place within the boundaries of the time restraints in which He has placed man, it happens at that precise time. He does what He promises when He promises.
2 Peter 3:8 is perhaps the most abused passage in the Bible by those attempting to nullify the unavoidable force of time statements. There is also no justification for connecting 2 Peter 3:8 with the poetic language of Hosea 6:2 in order to attempt to uphold their misapplication of Peter's words.
The time statements are clear to all who will look at them apart from their preconceived ideas and misuse of 2 Peter 3:8.
That scripture, when placed in its correct perspective actually proves that it was used to defend a weak position than it is/was actual reality.
It came up in the Epistle of Peter when it was evident critics were starting to question the noticeable long wait time Christians were experiencing in their waiting for Jesus. In an apparent effort to dispel impatience and possible questioning from in the ranks, a scripture such as the one you quoted was used to explain away the delay.
The other reason why the scripture is highly suspect is because the Epistle goes on to say that the only reason why Jesus had not yet return was because "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" hence the 1,000 years = 1 day equation. Is that so? Consider the many who have perished ("without Christ") over the past 2,000 years. Far less would have done so had Jesus come back 2,000 years ago I would think.
Greetings, Condemned: Who are the "any" and the "all?"
Greetings, StirringWaters: Are you suggesting that this verse negates all the time statements of the NT?
The meaning of 2 Peter 3:8 is not that with man and within his time frame one day equals a thousand years and a thousand years equals one day! Note that the verse does not say that. It clearly establishes that it is "with the Lord." It also establishes that one days is AS a thousand years, and a thousand years AS one day! The whole point of this passage is the faithfulness of God. He exists outside of time--He is not bound by it. BUT when He decrees that something will take place within the boundaries of the time restraints in which He has placed man, it happens at that precise time. He does what He promises when He promises.
2 Peter 3:8 is perhaps the most abused passage in the Bible by those attempting to nullify the unavoidable force of time statements. There is also no justification for connecting 2 Peter 3:8 with the poetic language of Hosea 6:2 in order to attempt to uphold their misapplication of Peter's words.
The time statements are clear to all who will look at them apart from their preconceived ideas and misuse of 2 Peter 3:8.
Preterist
Sigh.
I was just trying to figure out what Condemned had to think about it. I had no agenda. I wasn't making a suggestion.
Greetings, Condemned: Who are the "any" and the "all?"
Preterist
Could mean one of two things:
1. Those who were already Christians, as it should be considered he was writing to the "brethren," but why would they need to "come to repentance" since they should have already done that, OR
2. All unsaved human beings in general.
NOTE: The Greek word used for "all" is [SIZE=4]pa'ß which implies "every."[/SIZE]
This is a very interesting topic but has anyone considered that the jews had to be dispersed to all the nations before they could be regathered as a nation. In 70AD this is what happened the temple was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed. Now take into consideration that no other nation had ever returned after being dispersed for a long period of time. I believe there have only been a few and they had only been dispersed perhaps 300 to 500 years so if Christ returned in a mere 100 years where would the miricle be since there are other examples of this happening. Now 1900 to 2000 years, that would be miracalous. Now as I said the temple was destroyed in 70AD and Israel became a nation again in 1948 (Ezekiel 37). What must also be considered is that Russia was not a supepower until the 20th century and it is the nation mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39. Increase in travel and knowledge in Daniel 12:4. 2 Timothy mentions apostacy in 4:1-4, occultism in 4:3-4, and scoffers in 3:1-12, things that would have never happened to a noticable extent until recently. Moral breakdown in 2 Peter 3:1-12, I mean look at the abortions, sexual immorality, gang violence all getting worse and more widespread than ever before. These are but a few things that have only come about in force over the past 100 to 150 years.
In some of the more charismatic churches, there is the belief that folks in their churches speaking in tongues, having "visions" and dreams and proclaiming prophecies are indicators that we are living in the "last days." They base this belief on an alleged prophecy found in the Old Testament book of Joel where we find these words in its 2 chapter and 28th to 32nd verses:
Keep in mind that for some modern Christians, the "signs" mentioned in the first few verses are being fulfilled now (some refer to it as "the latter rain") and so it is only a matter of time before the other cosmic signs follow in keeping with chapters like Matthew 24 and portions of the book of Revelation where stars will fall and sun and moon will be darkened.
Preterist has been campaigning for quite some time now that the prophecies some Christians are waxing euphoric about today which are supposedly happening to precede "the rapture," have in fact, all been fulfilled already. Jesus already came back, the preterist says. The futurist says the prophecies are for today and have only started being fulfilled within recent history, notably since the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and thus Jesus' return is still future.
Now with all the scriptures flying around the place to support both sides in the other thread, no one mentioned Acts chapter 2. Note carefully that in verses 16 to 21, Peter basic tells the gathered crowd that he and his co-believers were fulfillment examples of Joel's prophecies and thus the "those days" (read: last days) were in effect. Also take careful note that in Joel's prophecy he says nothing about the "last days" but Peter begins his speech claiming that HIS day were the last based on the assumption that Joel's prophecy appears to be speakig about the end of time when he mentions the coming of "the day of the Lord." The Old Testament prophets also thought a time was soon to arrive in their era when God was going to tear up the place but that is another subject.
It is evident the early Christians believed they were indeed living in the last days and this is consistent with other New Testament passages AND consistent ever since then with subsequent generations of Christians up to this very day, each believing that THEY are the "this generation" Jesus is said to have spoken of. It is also not surprising (as with cults today) to notice the early Christians stripped themselves of worldly pleasures or did not seek any because they believed Jesus was soon to appear/come back (why stack up when Jesus is coming back any day now to end it all anyway?)
The apologist might object by saying, "well Peter's day was not really the last days, as in the actual end of time. It was just the start of the last days" even though there is no evidence presented to give us the impression the early Christians thought of any time well beyond their own. As a result of this thinking, we have had about 2,000 years of "last days" and still counting or only 2 days so far according to God's mysterious "prophetic clock" that only works with prophecies.
What say ye?
Hi Condemned,
I have grown so used to people ignoring Acts 2 about the last days. that I have moved on to just about every other place that supports a 1st century event. Its half the Bible after all. Its in Hebrews twice, 1 Peter, 1 Corinthians, Jude etc. Its like the pet grooming shop near my house. I did not even realize it was there for years because I passed by it so many times. I have tried to snap my fingers in front of people about Daniel 9 and say "hey snap out of it there is no gap" but they continue to sleep walk towards the flight of stairs. They have just eaten too many televangelist shrooms.
Now yall do know that not all of the prophecy attributed to Joel has been fulfilled. For one the Holy Spirit has not been poured out to all of mankind, but only on those who believe. Prophecies, Visions and Dreams have been happening since the beginning of time so there must be a special time or expression of this for it to actually count as an endtimes thing as we see in the next verse expresses, this must be something dramatic and noticable. 19 isnt even close to being fulfilled since the time of Christ but the invention of the nuke can fulfill this one if it is used. 20 would go along with 19 and 21 is the tuth for the past 2000 years. So are we being told that all was fulfilled in the first century and we are those caught in hell and have no hope for redemption?
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