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Old 12-30-2008, 08:35 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 5,153,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Well it seems you do not "trust"your god to supernaturally protect Israel. That is why I said, let the USA stop supporting Israel and no it is not off topic.

Israel today is NOT linked to any end time prophesy
Amen to that. The state of Israel was brought about due to the close of the 2nd world war. A declaration was declared and signed. Was it God doing this, or man? Is man now God?

When asked who gives the people occupying Israel the right to do the attrocities they have commited against Jews, Christians and Muslims, they say the bible does. That it is God's will for them to have this land.

My question is this: can you show me this? These people don't even believe in Jesus the Nazarene who IS their messiah, despite what John Hagee preaches.


I see a lot of side line Christians all chanting for Israel or others to cause the middle east to melt down, so that their Christ can come again. To build a temple where a mosque now stands. To institute temple sacrifices. To prepare that way, for their Master. Another question is this. Who is this master?

Jesus died to herald the world to a New Covenant. Willing giving up His life to do the Father's will. Died, rose again thereby defeating death and reconciling us to Father through His intercession. Do we really need more than this? Do we want any more than this?

Granted, I used to be excited looking forward to the "rapture", thinking any day now, poof! I was in a terrifying fear for those I loved, because I thought they would be left behind, and then they would suffer beyond reproach. I would be watching from above eating a supper with Jesus, and being thankful I wasn't like those poor pitiful people left behind. I did nothing but scare people telling them that hell was a real place and that they were going there for not believing how I believed.

Then I woke up, and saw this creature in the mirror. I was a judgmental fool, full of misplaced ego, with haughty eyes, showing distain for those Jesus had called me to love. I was failing in living,,,the Great Commision. So, I had to backtrack through years of theological teaching(brainwashing), and discover for myself who this Jesus of Nazareth was. He was a kind, compassionate man. He showed the world what True Love was, while rebuking those who thought they were righteous by their deeds, and by this righteousness, judged others, even to the death.

Then I looked at my religion, Christianity. My oh my, how history has indeed repeated itself. Now instead of rebuking Jesus as the Pharisees did, we rebuke those who actually seek Him for themselves, giving quotes from "enlightened" men to reinforce their beliefs. It doesn't matter if these beliefs go against God's Word or not, because their interpretations are due to their intelligence that use interpretations of some mystic divine secret before undisclosed to the heathen Christians prior to them. Wasn't the purest form of Christianity that which Jesus gave to the apostles to spead to the world? Isn't that what the first few hundred years of Christianity like? Wasn't that why there were hunted down, persecuted, and killed? What happened people?

Look at the similarities between the religions of Jesus's day, Judaism, and ours called Christianity.

They believed in the Law. We profess the Law to show sin and say we must follow just the 10 Commands, not the entire Torah.

Their punishment for unrepentant sin was death by stoning. Ours proclaims that they will reside for eternity in a lake of fire. IE the second death.

They were looking for their Messiah, and didn't recognize Him when He walked the Earth.
Ours is looking for our Messiah, called King this time, and don't recognize Him when He is manifested through other believers, as part of the Body of Christ.

The Jewish nation claims right to property(Israel) because of a lack of understanding of the scriptures.
The Christian people claim their right to heaven, because they said a prayer once in their life, based upon a lack of understanding of Paul's Letters.

The Jewish people believe this right has justified the killing of innocent people in the name of God.
The Christians believe this right to heaven, gives us the right to declare what is a righteous people and what isn't. And if found to be unrighteous, in our eyes, are delcared evil, and war against them is justified.

See anything missing here yet?

Jesus came to give life, NOW! It is freedom FROM this world, and from the adversary,,and by this freedom, the world will hate us. They will hate that we don't submit to their masters, and they will hate us for living as they cannot, because they have a lack of Love found only through God in ther lives residing in their hearts. They will strike us, and we will turn the other cheek. They will cause divisions between us to try and enslave us through these divisions. This is why I cannot stand labels, for these are the madness in their methods of divisions. Turn on the TV, and that is ALL you see.

The enemy has perfected the use of divisions. It is their best weapon, and they use money, media, religion, and whatever else they can to keep mankind enslaved to their agendas. See it for what it is, and take the blinders off.

Peace be with you all this new year.
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Old 12-30-2008, 11:04 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,621,075 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Actually, it takes more than reading the thoughts of mainstream theology and the madman assumptions of modern preachers to come up with these conclusions.

How is it a new doctrine? Because it wasn't preached nor taught before the great dispensationalism theology. Like seeker said, around the 1800's. That would be considered quite new in the grand sceme of things.

How does it entrap? It is called fear mongering. Actually it is more of an enslavement of the mind. This is no different than our government raising the "threat levels". I mean really, look around. Take a step back from mainstream Christianity, and just look. What is "popular" and what isn't! Jesus said the world would HATE YOU for following Him.

If the sky is falling or raising in this case, do you think most people are showing the love of Christ, or are they too busy scaring the crap out of people to get them to buy their books and watch their movies, and attend their churches.

The great commision is done when you show the Love of Christ manifested in your life. This is an outward action for an inward transformation.

I take pleasure in getting the masses to wake up, and seek and study for themselves, instead off being led off a cliff.
This is so completely over dramatic. All that is believed about the Rapture comes straight from the Bible. The Rapture is NOT some kind of fear mongering tactic, as it provides the ultimate hope to anyone who will accept Jesus Christ, and it is NOT A NEW BELIEF.

Quote:
Originally posted by RobinD69

Actually it is a well founded theory (the rapture) that has existed since the time of Christ based on His own words.

And btw, the world DOES hate Christians.....you need to open YOUR eyes. Do I need to quote what the "great commission" actually is, AGAIN??
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Old 12-30-2008, 11:46 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,213,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
--snip-- The Rapture is NOT some kind of fear mongering tactic, as it provides the ultimate hope to anyone who will accept Jesus Christ, and it is NOT A NEW BELIEF.
Sadly you are mistaken, this is a new theology that has only been around for less than 200 years and oddly enough has it's origins in the RCC (the folk you so adamantly dispise) Jesuit priests. I have provide the link many times but the link is not a 5 minute read, more like a 4 hours and research to other references that may take 3 full days of study. The problem is do you wish to remain with what you are bound to or do you want liberation that Jesus brought?

Quote:
And btw, the world DOES hate Christians.....you need to open YOUR eyes. Do I need to quote what the "great commission" actually is, AGAIN??
No the world does not hate Christians, they hate your perverted gospel. Seeing 80+% in the USA claim to be Christians, it is weird how you "rapture ready" folk see yourselves as persecuted..



I'll save you my pacman pie chart but you should get the hint.

In your eagerness to proclaim the gospel which means Good News, you folk scare the crap out folk through fearmongering turn-or-burn tactics in the false belief that the world will end soon so time is running out and thus you go on a rampage of sorts bible thumping but do not project the Love of Jesus you are supposed to espouse.

Keep reading John 6:44 till it sinks in.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw (literally drag) him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (consider also Paul's conversion)

There is also a song "Its all about you Jesus...." I sure you have heard it.
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Old 12-30-2008, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,834,604 times
Reputation: 634
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
This is so completely over dramatic. All that is believed about the Rapture comes straight from the Bible. The Rapture is NOT some kind of fear mongering tactic, as it provides the ultimate hope to anyone who will accept Jesus Christ, and it is NOT A NEW BELIEF.




And btw, the world DOES hate Christians.....you need to open YOUR eyes. Do I need to quote what the "great commission" actually is, AGAIN??
I dont remember saying the world doesnt hate Christians and if i did then i misspoke because I know for a fact the world does hate true Christianity and true Christians.

SeekerSA, I now see that you are not a Christian and have no desire to be one, you are merely a disgruntled Gentile who wants to argue for the purpose of arguing. No amout of evidence or facts could diswade you from your view because you are not here to seek but destroy. You have not been honest in your claims and do not seem to be interested in even looking at the evidence of other and only seek to proclaim the party line of liberals.

I ask to please take an honest look at the links I have provided to you no matter what you may think of them. We are not here to spread fear but peace and only someone with hate in their heart will see it as fear. If you will look in the Bible for sayings such as "caught up" this is translated Rapture and has been there since the time of Christ and even in the OT much longer. Look at Elijah and I believe Enosh neither man knew death but were Raptured.

Last edited by RobinD69; 12-30-2008 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:00 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,722,455 times
Reputation: 898
Default The masses

Apologies for seemingly veering off course and not addressing the end of days directly but...

The masses are in a drug induced stupor so steering them off a cliff shouldn't be that hard. Just offer free Gucci bags or flat screens at the bottom. The drug we are on? TV most likely. When our forefathers wrote references to intellectual and secular pursuits (they also wisely included spirituality) into our doctrine, I don't think they imagined the omnipresent power of mainstream media. Has any single thing posed such a large threat / challenge to our existence, spiritual or otherwise?

Get the masses off the tube and they may wake up to issues such as those discussed in this thread.

Lastly, I think I must be Doubting Thomas, re-born as skepticism runs rampant through my veins. I am not completely closed off though, even if sarcasm occasionally escapes from me.

Last edited by Mr Floyd; 12-30-2008 at 12:08 PM..
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,834,604 times
Reputation: 634
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Sadly you are mistaken, this is a new theology that has only been around for less than 200 years and oddly enough has it's origins in the RCC (the folk you so adamantly dispise) Jesuit priests. I have provide the link many times but the link is not a 5 minute read, more like a 4 hours and research to other references that may take 3 full days of study. The problem is do you wish to remain with what you are bound to or do you want liberation that Jesus brought?



No the world does not hate Christians, they hate your perverted gospel. Seeing 80+% in the USA claim to be Christians, it is weird how you "rapture ready" folk see yourselves as persecuted..



I'll save you my pacman pie chart but you should get the hint.

In your eagerness to proclaim the gospel which means Good News, you folk scare the crap out folk through fearmongering turn-or-burn tactics in the false belief that the world will end soon so time is running out and thus you go on a rampage of sorts bible thumping but do not project the Love of Jesus you are supposed to espouse.

Keep reading John 6:44 till it sinks in.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw (literally drag) him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (consider also Paul's conversion)

There is also a song "Its all about you Jesus...." I sure you have heard it.
Please read the actual words of Christ, you know the red lettered ones and you will see the tue Love of Christ instead of the watered down version the world wants you to see.
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:56 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,563,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Sadly you are mistaken, this is a new theology that has only been around for less than 200 years and oddly enough has it's origins in the RCC (the folk you so adamantly dispise) Jesuit priests. I have provide the link many times but the link is not a 5 minute read, more like a 4 hours and research to other references that may take 3 full days of study. The problem is do you wish to remain with what you are bound to or do you want liberation that Jesus brought?



No the world does not hate Christians, they hate your perverted gospel. Seeing 80+% in the USA claim to be Christians, it is weird how you "rapture ready" folk see yourselves as persecuted........
Ummmm....160,000,000 Christians are being persecuted worldwide, thousands are murdered in His name every year in the Middle East, India, Asia, Africa by communist, atheist, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc......
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:27 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,213,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Ummmm....160,000,000 Christians are being persecuted worldwide, thousands are murdered in His name every year in the Middle East, India, Asia, Africa by communist, atheist, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc......
Extraordinary claims call for citations or are you just inventing these figures? A reliable source please.

How do Atheists persecute Christians may I ask? You may have a case with China but you are stretching it in Africa, see I live here and have traveled to other African countries and even in the so called Muslim states, the Christians are left alone if they do not interfere with govt or the Muslims. It is called tolerance something you folk seem to lack.
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Old 12-30-2008, 02:47 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,213,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
SeekerSA, I now see that you are not a Christian and have no desire to be one, you are merely a disgruntled Gentile who wants to argue for the purpose of arguing. No amout of evidence or facts could diswade you from your view because you are not here to seek but destroy.
Aah so this is your tactic is it? And by what authority do you make such a judgment?

Quote:
You have not been honest in your claims and do not seem to be interested in even looking at the evidence of other and only seek to proclaim the party line of liberals
Firstly I am Not American so your definition of liberal does not fly but let us get the DM's out in the open shall we seeing honesty is on the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
I know it may not seem that way in the thread but I am curious as to what you believe and where you come up with your theories. I noticed you have mentioned Barry Smith and Thomas. Now I have watched Barry Smith on television and find his ideas interesting, but mentioning Thomas, I assume you mean the Gospel of Thomas and therefore gnostic views. If I remember in another thread you have exibited extreme gnostic perspectives. You can correct me if I am wrong of course. I only seek clarification rather than the verbal quarrel of the thread.
I was referring to a doubting Thomas and no I am not extreme gnostic whatever that is - the closest I match to is Universalism.

I used to be a sign watcher but the more I dug, the more I came to realize it was bunk.

My internet research just reinforced my suspicions. I am also not an OT proponent as literal so hence I challenge myths of the OT - I am not a Jew so thus the OT hebraic stuff should not overly influence my beliefs - written for a different time and a different people.

More or less - hope that helps.
I thank you and hope you understand I was merely trying to see where you are coming from because I do not see any benefit in attacking anyone based on a bunch of theories. I enjoy the endtimes stuff but I will admit it is alot of theories and we choose which theories we want to believe. I do believe the OT to be accurate and useful for our understanding. I am glad you are not a Gnostic and I can understand you perspective a little better thanks to your reply.
Quote:
I ask to please take an honest look at the links I have provided to you no matter what you may think of them. We are not here to spread fear but peace and only someone with hate in their heart will see it as fear. If you will look in the Bible for sayings such as "caught up" this is translated Rapture and has been there since the time of Christ and even in the OT much longer. Look at Elijah and I believe Enosh neither man knew death but were Raptured.
So why now the slander and accusations and you call yourself a Christian - go figure!

Called bait and trap but I know your type and have debated your kind many times on many boards

There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

You have no idea what my knowledge on eschatology is and you are basing your judgments on false premises or IOW puling it out of thin air.

Please do not insult me or my biblical knowledge or the fact I am a believer of 20+ years.

You do however have the right to agree to disagree with me as do I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
Please read the actual words of Christ, you know the red lettered ones and you will see the tue Love of Christ instead of the watered down version the world wants you to see.
You would do well to heed your own advice. Again do not underestimate my knowledge of the bible.

BTW the red lettered words used to be green letters and if that is all that you read then it explains maybe why we differ. The red/green letters make you miss the context. Very important.

Respectfully
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Old 12-30-2008, 03:02 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,563,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Extraordinary claims call for citations or are you just inventing these figures? A reliable source please.

How do Atheists persecute Christians may I ask? You may have a case with China but you are stretching it in Africa, see I live here and have traveled to other African countries and even in the so called Muslim states, the Christians are left alone if they do not interfere with govt or the Muslims. It is called tolerance something you folk seem to lack.
hmmmm...let's see, atheists are communists from China to Eastern Block Nations. Christians are commonly being watched, harrased, jailed, imprisioned, tortured. Africa, where to start? Nigeria where Sharia Law is very prevalent, Christian parents are having their children abducted and and they are forced to convert to Islam, have you been monitoring the Sudan? Let's go to India and what is going on in Orissa State where they are putting bounties on Christian's heads, a pastor will bag you $250.00.

Don't fool yourself that Christians are not tolerant, we are not the ones going around killing others since you yourself claim we have all this power to weild and interfere with other people's lives.

Violence without provacation goes against the very fabric of God's teaching.
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