The Deception of Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism and the Threat to Christianity (scriptures, rituals)
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1st Theory!
June is complete within self, like God. June does'nt need to believe because June is like a god complete within self belieiving nothing aware of everthing. Only other beings outside of June's world may or may not believe June. The choice is their own by freewill. Those who believe June could well be considered believers. But June does not require this. No dogma. No stipulations. No threats. No cavaets. No Coercion. No June does not need those things. June is those things within self only.
Quote:
"Follow me."
What happened to that?
Just "Follow me"
No dogma. No doctrine. No stipulations. No threats. No cavaets. No coercien. No....what, Carolins Guy?
Tell me.
Answer that for the unbeliever.
This nonbeliever.
I believe June was referring to Jesus saying to follow Him . . . no bible , no written doctrines, etc. etc.
I believe June was referring to Jesus saying to follow Him . . . no bible , no written doctrines, etc. etc.
Then the real question is: What does "Follow Me" really mean in view of the diverse opinions circulating within the believer world
In view of the religious kaos for centuries and lack of any global unity of the claimants/adherents, even among those claiming same demoninational belief, maybe the real question for some is Who and what are we exactly following ???
The prime commandments: Love God and Love each other . . . make that your "state of mind."
Interesting that many claim belief in following those two greatest commandments, yet I think June's dilemma is where is the example of this working in the lives of those claiming to be Christ's Followers
"Follow Me" Jesus stated a few of the following simple not so tough discernable FACTS about those who would be identified as his true followers in regard to your quoted, "Love God and Love each other . . ".
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 17:16,17 (NAS)
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."
Sanctify them in the truth, your word ["bible"] is truth."
What do the historical FACTS show us about the true identity of the "Following Me" crowd/believers. Who and where are they. Crusades, Inquisitions, WWI, WWII, Present day conflicts/political infighting among professed believers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 17:20-21 (Message Bible)
"I'm praying not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me, because of them and their witness about me. The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind - Just as You, Father, are in me and I in You, So that they may be one heart and mind with us.
Then the world might believe that You, in fact, sent me.
The same glory You game me, I gave them, So they'll be as unified and together as we are, I in them and You in me. Then they'll be mature in this oneness, and give the Godless world evidence, that You sent me and loved them in the same way You loved me."
Where is the observable "Global Unity" that would be the identifying Hallmark of true believers
I think June has perfect understanding of the "how and what of "Follow Me", but it's the where that continues to be so ellusive to June. I believe she is looking for this and if she find and observes this, then the belief/viewpoint could/might be considered/meditated on as probable/possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 13:34-35 (Mesage Bible)
"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize you are my disciples - when they see the love you have for each other."
I don't think anyone, including June are really asking so much. Again, most thinking and reasoning people do know the "what", but it's the "where" that is so hard to find.
June is certainly not alone. Another non-Christian historical figure observed the same thing. He did understand the "what", but it was that "where" question that was so nagging. I know I get flamed demonized for bring up this famous historical quote, but the ellusive question never has an appropriate and satisfying answer. So he it is again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghandi to British Viceroy of India Lord Irwin
"I like your Christ. I just don't like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Yet Ghandi did believe in Christ's famous "Sermon on the Mount" here in his reply to Lord Erwin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghandi to British Viceroy of India Lord Irwin
"When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world."
Spin it any way you like, but "where is the where" ??? Maybe it's a "Clintonian Definition" issue. "It depends on what your definition of what is is. Or perhaps it depends on your definition of what is where" ???
No skin off my back. Your judgment is worthless because it is not rooted in God's holy word. You have no leg to stand on, no water to hold. You seem to have a history of telling people to not reply to your wayward posts, as if you want to have the last word. This is not about having the last word, but about exposing your deceptive new age beliefs that have been permeating through Christianity. If you find yourself being insulted, then simply leave the thread. You were not invited here and you are more than welcome to leave. I am not going to sit here and let you espouse your opinion (which that is all it is--personal opinion) freely without defending the Word against it. Your man-made spiritual enlightenment holds no light to God's absolute truth.
And as far as my formal education and analytical thinking skills, you don't even want to go there.
if this were a car accident, this would be the moment for first aid.
since this appears to be leading to a major mental traffic jam ...
foreseeable ... (and proven meanwhile), this would be the moment to blow the whistle!!!
As to the Bible: the merciful Samaritan is rarely quoted and even less heeded!
lol...who says I don't wish for the same things? I am of course pro-life, I am a good steward of the earth, I am charitable (I can always improve that), and no Christian "loves" war, although it is justified sometimes.
Just so we're clear, I never suggested you don't value ending abortion or stewarding the earth or helping the poor or ending war. I was sure all along that you do support such good things. (to that point - neither do pro-choice advocates "love" abortion, but sometimes it is necessary just like war is. Both can be abused and justified for frivolous reasons).
I was simply pointing out that, in my profound journey I have been taught through visceral experience precisely how to end demand for abortion instead of just passing laws that outlaw supply of abortions and force the market underground.
I have been taught how to end poverty without creating a welfare state and end ecological destruction without stifling the progress of humanity and end war without forfeiting a country's right to defend its interests.
It all lies in the untapped potential of human consciousness to evolve to a point at which we thrive within the intrinsic unity that exists between all life (what you would call trusting in the Holy Spirit). It is very spiritual as well as scientific, yet, you call what I have experienced "deception"... and that kind of saddens me.
I suspect that the "second coming" has more to do with this awakening of human consciousness to this wisdom that Christ taught and the end of humanity's long, slow advancement over thousands of years to the highest point this current level of consciousness can handle. We have created the technologies, the political systems, the economic systems, etc.. that work best for this level of human development. They are failing us for our next step (or at least our current interpretations are). I suspect we are now in the throes of transitioning to the next level of collective consciousness and that is why you are seeing a proliferation of "contemplative spirituality" across all traditions.
Should be interesting. Okay. Sorry. I said I would leave you alone but, for once, I feel there is a constructive dialogue from all sides involved in this difficult issue. Kudos!
June is quite correct about Kierkegaard and Tillich . . . you have obviously not read either and are relying on uneducated opinions of fundamentalist rabble-rousers. Kierkegaard was a passionate advocate of Christianity and Tillich was one of the most influential Protestant theologians of the 20th Century. Most fundamentalists don't have a clue what a true Christian is supposed to be based on the misrepresentations from their clergy and other leaders combined with a simplistic literal reading of scripture they are typically not sufficiently educated to interpret. It is a travesty of ignorance.
I really agree with everything you say. Ufortunately, the impression I get from Christians all the time is they are following a lesser, exterior-path, still firmly stuck in mythic imagery and ego-formations- less "catholic" and more parochial and tribal. You can believe in something and yet have intellectual humility at the same time. It's a good sign of spiritual growth.
I've been practicing Buddhism for two years, meditated alot, and had several mystical experiences. I grew up Christian and abandoned belief in college... now I'm a Buddhist panentheist. Is it perfect? No. But it beats the heck out of Christian triumphalism. I myself study under a lineage by Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh. People who bash meditation do not understand it, it is that simple. If anything, I think meditation has restorted a bit of my belief in "God", not in the Christian sense of a bearded man in the sky, but in the sense that there is integrity and meaning to the universe- it's just not expressable in bronze-age fairy-tales.
I have actually visited a few churches, most of them just did not appeal to me, for one reason or another.
No dogma. No doctrine. No stipulations. No threats. No cavaets. No coercien. No....what, Carolina guy?
Tell me.
Answer that for the nonbeliever.
This nonbeliever.
I know you do.
And that's okay.
And I mean that from my heart.
We are getting away from the OP. Jesus said follow me, but He also said:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and find pasture ... I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:9)
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." (John 11:25)
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." (John 8:12)
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:35)
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)
"... whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:15-16)
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)
"... And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11)
"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:14)
Carolina Guy,
Can you tell me where you heard about Divine Love? I already know what it means so I don't want a definition.
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demonized for bring up this famous historical quote, but the ellusive question never has an appropriate and satisfying answer. So he it is again.
