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I didn't catch that and I think you are right, although I voted option #1. But I also agree with Alpha that we cannot truly repent if we don't love God first. Having said that, it would have been wise to include confession and repentance of sin in the text.
Maybe I should have considered that when I posted.
It's a good point and obviously important (although when asked about the greatest commandments they were love God and love people....so I still think repentance is covered by sincere love.)
Here's from the same source on being Christ-like:
To be like Christ you must develop the mid of Christ. The New Testament calls this mental shift repentance, which in Greek literally means "to change your mind." You repent whenever you change the way you think by adopting how God thinks-about yourself, sin, God, other people, life, your future, and everything else. You take on Christ's outlook and perspective.
There's a little more but I'm actually typing this, not copying and pasting so it get kinda hard.
I'm not much of a typist!
Last edited by Alpha8207; 03-23-2009 at 11:43 AM..
Reason: edit
I was reading something the other day and need your input.
The text in question:
"While life on earth offers many choices, eternity offers only two: heaven or- hell. Your relation-ship to God on earth will de-termine your relationship to him in eternity. If you learn to love -and- trust God's Son, Jesus, you will be in-vited to spend the rest of eternity with him. On the other hand, if you reject his love, forgiveness, and sal-vation, you will spend eternity apart from God forever."
And regarding Christ's death....
"If God never did any-thing else for you, he would still deserve your continual praise for the rest of your life be-cause of what Jesus did for you on the cross. God's Son died for you! This is the great-est reason for worship.
.......
.......Why did God allow and en-dure such ghastly, evil mis-treatment? Why? So you could be spared from eternity in hell, and so you could share in his glory for-ever! The Bible says, -"Christ was without sin, but for our sake God made him share our sin in order that in union with him we might share the righteousness of God""
So I ask humbly that you read those quotes and vote in the poll.
I'm making the poll public because sometimes I think we have non-believers skew our voting. I want to get a pretty accurate picture of what you, as a Christian, think about this.
Thanks all!
Hi Alpha,
I voted the last one and I will tell you why...
Quote:
"While life on earth offers many choices, eternity offers only two: heaven or- hell. Your relation-ship to God on earth will de-termine your relationship to him in eternity. If you learn to love -and- trust God's Son, Jesus, you will be in-vited to spend the rest of eternity with him. On the other hand, if you reject his love, forgiveness, and sal-vation, you will spend eternity apart from God forever."
While I do agree with this remark: "you will spend eternity apart from God forever."
I don't agree totally with the one above it: " eternity offers only two: heaven or- hell." (Unless.....you are using the word 'grave,' which is the correct meaing of the word 'hell').
Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, (the grave)neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The other word(s) Jesus used for 'hell' is 'hell fire" which means the "lake of fire." Which is an 'anology' for "the second death," which is the death (perish) of the soul, not the body.
Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (lake of fire).
And also note. The first thing one is told to do is repent, change your mind, etc. Before we can believe and be saved we have to change our mind and habits...
Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mr 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Most people leave the repent first out and just say, "hear and believe."
So....my point......There are two options, but they are: Spend eternity with God or perish in the lake of fire i.e the second death, and cease to exsist thus spending eternity away from God.
Edited to add...first we must repent of the wrong things we believe or have been taught. We also repent of any bad 'habits we may have acquired (which may be, for a while, an on going thing)...
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-13-2009 at 09:16 AM..
Maybe I should have considered that when I posted.
It's a good point and obviously important (although when asked about the greatest commandments they were love God and love people....so I still think repentance is covered by sincere love.)
Here's from the same source on being Christ-like:
To be like Christ you must de-velop the mid of Christ. The New Testament calls this men-tal shift repentance, which in Greek literally means "to change your mind." You repent when-ever you change the way you think by adopting how God thinks-about your-self, sin, God, other people, life, your future, and every-thing else. You take on Christ's out-look and perspective.
There's a little more but I'm actually typing this, not copying and pasting so it get kinda hard.
I'm not much of a typist!
Well that makes sense as well. Does repentance have to be vocal? Of course, repentance is judged by the action of turning away from sin, but can this be done without vocalization (to God)?
Life is Jesus!
Though I don't understand all of it, Christ has given me the faith to believe it....and the truth to choose it, and a life of forgiveness through Him to live it, for all eternity!
I think (sincere) love for God brings about repentance....although you are right and it's not spelled out specifically in that particular quote. But how can I say I love you if I purposely do things that I know hurts you?
You've got a point there. Repentance and love work together.. whether love for God brings about repentance, or repentance brings about (true)love for God might be debatable, but not a great issue necessarily and like you say, it's not spelled out specifically in the quote. We certainly can't hate God and repent!
Quote:
And the scripture is some version of II Cor 5:21:
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
And also note. The first thing one is told to do is repent, change your mind, etc. Before we can believe and be saved we have to change our mind and habits...
But repentance is done at the same time as believing and asking forgiveness. If we "work" to change our minds and habits before asking for salvation, none of us would get to the place (ever) when we feel like, "ok, I'm good enough to ask Christ into my heart."
This a simple prayer one could say that would bring them salvation:
"Dear God, thank you so much for loving me. I know I am a sinner and I am lost without you. I believe in your Son Jesus, who died for my sins on the cross and rose again 3 days later. I want to turn away from my sins and I need your help to do this. I ask for Jesus to forgive me and wash my sins away. Please forgive me Lord, I ask Jesus into my heart, and thank you for saving my soul and giving me eternal life through Him!"
There is no complexity in that. And we will never be perfect, not as baby Christians and not as mature Christians. By following Jesus and walking in the light, we will continue to be sanctified, turning away from the old self and becoming the new self. It can't happen overnight and God will continue to refine us like gold and silver.
I chose 1 because we do need to keep it simple. SOmetimes we make things too complicated for non believers, but we must be cautious not to make it so simple they still do not get it. Many believe their is more than one way to God even though Christ said Himself that narrow is the way. Many believe they can accept Christ but still live as they like and this goes against what Christ said about becoming a new creation. As Christ said many will say Lord Lord we have done so much in your name and He will say depart from me I knew you not. We cannot just claim a name without claiming the person because like I have heard many say before "Jesus is the guy who cuts my grass". So are you doing His will in His name or are you claiming the name without His will?
Dealing with such matters puts me at odds with myself. No matter how strong my personal belief I struggle with any judgement beyond my own or that of the world, this also includes who is "saved"... which is also judgement.
I can, should and do speak freely about my own salvation... and I also believe we ''the saints" have a moral obligation to judge matters, not people, of the world. But beyond that, exercising any decision for others troubles me.
Beautifully said, Dave . . . I suspect you are a literalist or fundamentalist . . . but this places your views a major spiritual step above most, IMO.
Quote:
You know I'm not a universalist... but I do believe all roads lead to God, but many make wrong turns.... because they make God their passenger rather than the driver. The way is narrow but I also believe the way is more like a funnel then a straw.
And this places your views in the "spiritual jackpot" category, IMO. If I may borrow this phrasing . . . I wish to incorporate it into my own less comprehensible explanations.
As to the OP . . . my own views are mixed. Eternity is a long time and my God is beneficent. Since our life energy is already conscious . . . the torment aspect has to be personal suffering and regret (weeping and gnashing of teeth . . . not demonic maltreatment or punishment) . . . the duration of which is indeterminate. Jesus's "you will not come out of it until you have paid the very last mite" poses an open interpretation.
As for worship . . . you already know my view that God has no need for such . . . it is for OUR benefit that we do so . . . as it focuses our spirit on our ultimate goal.
As to the "why" question . . . it was inevitable during the barbarous time during which Jesus lived. Jesus's mission was to bring God's Holy Spirit to humankind and redeem God's promise to send a messiah. The consequences of that were known and accepted in love by Jesus . . whose life and death was intended to reveal God's TRUE nature and inspire the very spiritual development that did indeed follow (although sporadically) his death and rebirth as Spirit . . . up to today. Once Jesus was reborn as Spirit . . . the Holy Spirit was made available to ALL humankind as our inner guide (conscience . . . clearly non-existent in our ancestors who seem totally motivated by external forces). We decide . . . using our free will . . . if that guide remains as passenger or becomes the driver on our journey (Thanks Dave . . . I absolutely LOVE it).
.......Why did God allow and en-dure such ghastly, evil mis-treatment? Why? So you could be spared from eternity in hell, and so you could share in his glory for-ever! The Bible says, -"Christ was without sin, but for our sake God made Him Share our sin in order that in union with him we might share the righteousness of God""
I don't think Christ "shared our sin" He couldn't, he was sinless...He paid theprice of sin..every sin imaginable by man.. in His death ..
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..you are using the word 'grave,' which is the correct meaing of the word 'hell').
...There are two options, but they are: Spend eternity with God or perish in the lake of fire i.e the second death, and cease to exsist thus spending eternity away from God.
