Salvation and the Catholic Church: Part 1 (mystic, Jesus Christ, soul, bishop)

[carlos123]

I am not yet clear on the role that the Sacrements of the Catholic Church play in salvation if anyone knows of a good link that might help me understand that aspect of Catholic salvation better.

I've been doing quite a bit of reading trying to find an answer but so far...haven't come up with any brief statement which spells out what role the Sacraments play in salvation...other than Baptism.

Still looking....

Carlos

[carlos123]

I found one...

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ...

So the Sacrements are neccessary for salvation then. I am still not clear on how it is possible for someone that is not married for example to be saved in view of their not participating in the Sacrament of Matrimony.

Or how someone who is not a priest can be saved if they have not partaken of the Sacramenet of Holy Orders.

Still reading...

Carlos

[carlos123]

It seems pretty clear that it is not possible to be assured with any degree of certainty that one will be saved under Catholic teaching about salvation. Any thoughts on that?

Is that a correct understanding of Catholic teaching on salvation?

If that is not correct then how is it possible to be assured of salvation by Catholic teaching?

Carlos

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by carlos123

It seems pretty clear that it is not possible to be assured with any degree of certainty that one will be saved under Catholic teaching about salvation. Any thoughts on that?

Is that a correct understanding of Catholic teaching on salvation?

If that is not correct then how is it possible to be assured of salvation by Catholic teaching?

Carlos

Maybe it's me, but I'm not following you.

could you rephrase your question?

[carlos123]

What I meant Oakback is that in my understanding so far there is no way to know for certain that one is going to heaven before one...well dies, I guess.

According to Catholic teaching mind you.

And that's because one never knows if one will be able to avoid mortal sin entirely until...well...one is dead and can't sin anymore.

While the Catholic Church teaches that one can be forgiven of mortal sin I think, based on my reading, that one can end up comitting such a sin and not have a chance to confess it such that they die in a state of mortal sinfulness (that has not yet been forgiven).

Does that clarify my question?

I am not making a declaritive statement mind you of what the Catholic Church believes on this but that's how it seems to my understanding so far.

Is that correct? Can a Catholic know they are saved as in completely forgiven for all their sins? Past, present, and future? Such that they can have assurance of going to heaven?

Carlos

[Okiegirlfriend]

I don't think anyone has positive assurance that they are going to Heaven. We just hope and pray that we will.

Since you like to read, maybe you can find something here.

Sacraments of Faith and Salvation


Catholic Culture : Library : The Sacraments and the History of Salvation


http://www.catholicconvert.com/Portals/0/Documents/StudyGuideMoses.pdf (broken link)

Enjoy!

[carlos123]

Originally Posted by Okiegirlfriend

I don't think anyone has positive assurance that they are going to Heaven. We just hope and pray that we will.

That's what I have come to gather the official Catholic position is based on my reading. Incidentally as a side note I know that I am forgiven of all my sin (past and future) and that I am going to heaven but that's just a side note for future consideration on other threads. I just mention it here to let you know that it is indeed possible to know that one is going to heaven.

I appreciate the links very much and will shortly be looking at their contents.

I am presently in the midst of reading a book by a former priest who became a Protestant Christian and was actually reading it when I got news of your post.

The main thing I am trying to gain through my reading is an absolutely accurate understanding of Catholic teaching regarding salvation so that I might be in a better position to discuss whether Catholic teaching lines up with Scripture or not.

My interest in this is partially academic but much more importantly I want to be able to discuss the Catholic Church and it's beliefs in an intelligent way. My desire is to end up living the rest of my life in the country of my birth in South America. A country is which is very, very Catholic. Many of my relatives are Catholic. Indeed I think they all are (and there are hundreds of them). I think I am the only Christian of a Protestant pursuasion among them. Which makes it incumbent upon me to be able to speak intelligently about the differences there are between Catholicism and well...none Catholic (I do not label myself a Protestant as I am not protesting anything...I prefer to label myself as just Christian).

Anyway...thanks again.

I'll get back to my reading now .

Carlos

[skbs]

Originally Posted by carlos123

That's what I have come to gather the official Catholic position is based on my reading. Incidentally as a side note I know that I am forgiven of all my sin (past and future) and that I am going to heaven but that's just a side note for future consideration on other threads. I just mention it here to let you know that it is indeed possible to know that one is going to heaven.

I appreciate the links very much and will shortly be looking at their contents.

I am presently in the midst of reading a book by a former priest who became a Protestant Christian and was actually reading it when I got news of your post.

The main thing I am trying to gain through my reading is an absolutely accurate understanding of Catholic teaching regarding salvation so that I might be in a better position to discuss whether Catholic teaching lines up with Scripture or not.

My interest in this is partially academic but much more importantly I want to be able to discuss the Catholic Church and it's beliefs in an intelligent way. My desire is to end up living the rest of my life in the country of my birth in South America. A country is which is very, very Catholic. Many of my relatives are Catholic. Indeed I think they all are (and there are hundreds of them). I think I am the only Christian of a Protestant pursuasion among them. Which makes it incumbent upon me to be able to speak intelligently about the differences there are between Catholicism and well...none Catholic (I do not label myself a Protestant as I am not protesting anything...I prefer to label myself as just Christian).

Anyway...thanks again.

I'll get back to my reading now .

Carlos

Carlos, as a Catholic I don't think gathering information from a former Catholic Priest alone is going to be the best way to get all of the accurate information. You might get some, and it may be fabulous information. But there are reasons this person left the Catholic Church. SOMETHING did not sit well with them. There might be hostilities there that will lead you in a direction that might not be exactly accurate or it might be judgemental. Might I suggest talking with a Priest? Deacon? I know you have many questions and I am sure you could find your answers more clearly and directly through an actual person standing before you. If you don't like the idea of a Priest, what about a college professor? Also, please know we, as Catholics, label ourselves as CHRISTIANS... just as you do Just keep that in mind when you are taking note on the SIMILARITIES.....

[carlos123]

Originally Posted by skbs

Carlos, as a Catholic I don't think gathering information from a former Catholic Priest alone is going to be the best way to get all of the accurate information.

I appreciate your input skbs. Truly. Just know that I am not so naive as to believe that all or most of my information should come from those priests that have left the Catholic Church. I did not even start reading the book I am reading until I had already read a great deal including major portions of the Catholic Catechism.

Also...I was raised a Catholic so I am more familiar with all things Catholic than what I say might imply. But, it's been a while since I delved into these things so it never hurts to have a refresher .

You might get some, and it may be fabulous information. But there are reasons this person left the Catholic Church. SOMETHING did not sit well with them.

Absolutely. If there were no reasons they would have never left. The only question is whether those reasons were valid or not and more specifically, for my purposes, whether those reasons can shed some further light on what the Catholic Church believes about salvation and whether it lines up with the Bible.

There might be hostilities there that will lead you in a direction that might not be exactly accurate or it might be judgemental.

Agreed but that's no reason to reject what they say. I just need to be careful that I don't buy everything that might be said by former priests hook, line, and sinker without careful evaluation of what they say.

Might I suggest talking with a Priest? Deacon? I know you have many questions and I am sure you could find your answers more clearly and directly through an actual person standing before you.

Actually I do not believe I could. If I talk to one priest and they turn out to be a dud where does that leave me if not at square one to start all over again. Minus the time it took me to go find the one priest and go and see him.

If on the other hand I read and read and discuss things with Catholic online I am not out a great deal of time, I can read in my spare time, and through a process of public discussion I can arrive at the truth about what the Catholic Church teaches much faster than trying to find a competent priest to talk to. Not all priests are equally competent.

Incidentally I talked to a priest once. A Jesuit of the highest order. Well respected as a Catholic Jesuit. But he was a complete and utter turn off to me in that in part, he cussed and spoke in a manner which was anything but godly. And he evaded some of my questions such that I did not get straight answers from him.

There is no reason to go talk to a priest if I can gain the knowledge I seek much quicker and easier by reading things put out by Catholic writers, the Catholic Church, and discussing what I read with sincere and devout Catholics.

If you don't like the idea of a Priest, what about a college professor?

Why do I need to talk to anyone in person? I would think that any Catholic person, whether they be priest, professor, or just a forum member should be able to explain to me the plan of salvation according to the Catholic Church.

It would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if the Catholic Church was really the true Church but was not able to help her people understand salvation well enough that those trusting in her could not adequately explain the basis for their hope of heaven.

Whatever I may believe about the Catholic Church and it's claims to being the Church...I do not believe Jesus intended the Gospel message to be such that only learned ecclesiasticals or theologians could explain it.

Also, please know we, as Catholics, label ourselves as CHRISTIANS... just as you do Just keep that in mind when you are taking note on the SIMILARITIES.....

I understand that and will try to honor the label that Catholics use for themselves where ever I can. But I personally was not a Christian while a Catholic and do not consider Catholics today to be Christians just because they are Catholic (though to be sure, I think some are both Catholic and Christian).

Carlos

[Morale Officer]

Ladies and Gentlemen, it is clear he has no interest in the truth and refuses to get the truth from those who are able to give it to him 100% - A Priest/Deacon/Bishop. First he says he doesn't want to pay the bus fare to see a Priest. Now he says he doesn't think he could get the information from a Priest? He wouldn't even have to buy a bus ticket. Emails work. Phones work. I am breaking what I said before to make a point here. This man doesn't want the truth. What he wants is controversy. What he wants is gossip. It's time to let him talk to a Priest or Bishop and let this thread die.