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I see what you are saying.
But doesn't it say "somewhere" in the bible that He will not return until every single person has heard His words?
I could be wrong...again,,,,,I'm at a loss as to where on the spur of the moment.
Hi Sherry, I do believe that there are scriptures which speak of all hearing His words, and I also believe that this refers to those who have died without ever hearing about Jesus. I believe that this proclamation will be instrumental in restoring all to God. God bless.
Forgiveness through Christ's atoning sacrifice is not limited to one particular group only; it has worldwide application. It must, however, be received by faith (see John 3:16). Thus this verse does not teach universalism (that all people ultimately will be saved), but that God is an impartial God.
Hi Sherry, I appreciate the study. I believe when Jesus declared that "if (when) I am lifted up (offered as the sacrifice for all), I will draw all men to me" (Jn 12:32) , the literal to draw is drag.The original text was different than what we have today.
God will not tolerate anything except His reflection, if we want to get technical - no sin obviously, but also no flesh (1 Cor 1:29) - no trace of anything from the Adamic nature, which we still have. Those that die here on earth still have it. Cleansing must be something more than what we see in this realm.
God will change hearts, just as He changed ours. Just because we believe they shouldn't be made privy to His grace doesn't mean God - who will have all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) - won't have His desire realized.
Hi Sherry, I appreciate the study. I believe when Jesus declared that "if (when) I am lifted up (offered as the sacrifice for all), I will draw all men to me" (Jn 12:32) , the literal to draw is drag.The original text was different than what we have today.
God will not tolerate anything except His reflection, if we want to get technical - no sin obviously, but also no flesh (1 Cor 1:29) - no trace of anything from the Adamic nature, which we still have. Those that die here on earth still have it. Cleansing must be something more than what we see in this realm.
God will change hearts, just as He changed ours. Just because we believe they shouldn't be made privy to His grace doesn't mean God - who will have all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) - won't have His desire realized.
Hi Elmer,
It is a pleasure to have this study with such kind people.
Of course, I believe that it is God's will that all be saved.
I just find so many verses that tell us that not all will be saved. Many will not accept His gift...many will knock on His door...etc. etc.
God can do anything He wants to...I know this.
I have some concern in that when some say that all will be saved that this gives others the excuse that they do not need to live a life of Christ...for they will think there is not reason because regardless of what they believe or how they live they will eventually be with God. ---unless I'm reading you wrong.
This, in and of itself, is the reason that I have chose to read more indepth on this.
Blessings.
I have some concern in that when some say that all will be saved that this gives others the excuse that they do not need to live a life of Christ...for they will think there is not reason because regardless of what they believe or how they live they will eventually be with God. ---unless I'm reading you wrong.
This, in and of itself, is the reason that I have chose to read more indepth on this.
Blessings.
And this is the issue that I've tried to address for many on this forum. I firmly believe in the message of the Cross - this does not resonate with most Christians, that we must die to the flesh in order to recieve His fullness. Jesus told us over and over that we must take up OUR cross, except a grain of wheat dies..., he came to baptize with fire, the servant is not greater than his Master, etc. etc. There is a process for us after we recieve Him. The fruits of His life come from His nature, not from Adam's - we can't plant a cactus seed and expect a rose.
This concept applies to all in Adam. There is not one of us that is pure; no one dies pure. This "fire" must be applied to all. Scripture tells us that all the earth will be devoured, and what is our flesh but dust of the earth? I believe this is the weeping and gnashing of teeth spoken of, this is the denial and penalty we read about; but God has said He will not be angry forever, but that He would see the travail of His soul and be satisfied.
There are no short cuts, but there is a guarantee that He will consume all of creation back into Himself, and He will be all in all. Tell me how that can be, except we're all gathered together?
Oddly enough, I doubt many "Christians" understand what they believe. The Church, scripture, Christ and the holy Trinity are not up for grabs.
I believe as the first Christians believe..
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset.php?type=image&id=315 (broken link)
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;
And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
We look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the Life of the age to come. Amen
And this is the issue that I've tried to address for many on this forum. I firmly believe in the message of the Cross - this does not resonate with most Christians, that we must die to the flesh in order to recieve His fullness. Jesus told us over and over that we must take up OUR cross, except a grain of wheat dies..., he came to baptize with fire, the servant is not greater than his Master, etc. etc. There is a process for us after we recieve Him. The fruits of His life come from His nature, not from Adam's - we can't plant a cactus seed and expect a rose.
This concept applies to all in Adam. There is not one of us that is pure; no one dies pure. This "fire" must be applied to all. Scripture tells us that all the earth will be devoured, and what is our flesh but dust of the earth? I believe this is the weeping and gnashing of teeth spoken of, this is the denial and penalty we read about; but God has said He will not be angry forever, but that He would see the travail of His soul and be satisfied.
There are no short cuts, but there is a guarantee that He will consume all of creation back into Himself, and He will be all in all. Tell me how that can be, except we're all gathered together?
Hi Elmer,
I got to come back sooner than I thought! Made a trade with my daughter...computer for texting priviledges...hummm. I will be thinking about this later, I'm sure....lol.
Could you please provide scripture? I'm not sure exactly what you are speaking of. Sorry...probably just me...but still.
I am a firm believer that we are born again when baptized. I know some believe this baptism to be immersion---like I do...others believe differently. I'm not quite sure how this is addressing those who who think that if they believe as you do then there is not need to live a godly life? Hope that made sense.
A question that I would have is then if all are to be with God eventually, ---like you say---then what is the need for the bible? It sort of sounds like just simply saying okay...we live, we die, we will all be with God no matter what we do. Sorry, I know I said that in the last post. Just asking for what scripture you are referring to.
A question that I would have is then if all are to be with God eventually, ---like you say---then what is the need for the bible? It sort of sounds like just simply saying okay...we live, we die, we will all be with God no matter what we do. Sorry, I know I said that in the last post. Just asking for what scripture you are referring to.
Hi Sherry,
I believe that God is calling out a people today who are the firsfruits, the first group of people to experience His salvation. James refers to believers as a kind of first fruits among God's creatures (James 1:18) Believers are to be different than the world. Believers are to be the people of God, the manifestation of God's salvation. So this means that yes, we are to live for Him. Jesus gave His life for us and as a result, we are to live for Him. We no longer live for ourselves. The elect will rule and reign with Jesus so God is transforming us into His image and preparing us for a future role in His kingdom.
1 Peter 2:
9But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royalPRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; (caps from NAS translation)
What we do today,does matter, and I also believe that we will reap what we sow. But eventually all of creation is to experience reconciliation to God. (Romans 8). It is to be delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. There are many scriptures which speak to this promise.
Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope*21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
*hope=elpis=expectation
Quote:
agree that yes, that during the ends of times all know who God is. But doesn't it say in Revelation that yes, indeed that they will know but that they are not saved?---I don't remember where! But if need be, I can find it.
Referring to vs. 29----If you read in Job it talks about Job going down to the dust and not being to understand why God won't forgive him. --therefore, wouldn't Job be one who could not keep his soul alive?
Could you give me these references? Thanks! God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 04-18-2009 at 06:01 PM..
Hi Sherry,
I believe that God is calling out a people today who are the firsfruits, the first group of people to experience His salvation. James refers to believers as a kind of first fruits among God's creatures (James 1:18) Believers are to be different than the world. Believers are suppose to be the people of God, the manifestation of God's salvation. So this means that yes, we are to live for Him. Jesus gave His life for us and as a result, we are to live for Him. We no longer live for ourselves. The elect will rule and reign with Jesus so God is transforming us into His image and preparing us for a future role in His kingdom.
You'll get no arguement from me concerning this. I yearn daily to be a part of His kingdom.
1 Peter 2:
9But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royalPRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
What we do today,does matter, and I also believe that we will reap what we sow. But eventually all of creation is to experience reconciliation to God. (Romans 8). It is to be delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. There are many scriptures which speak to this promise.
I'm happy to hear that you think this way. I'm afraid though, there are just so many out there who will think "okay, it doesn't matter what I do." I just don't think that God would want people to think this. I will have to read more tonight...so that I can see how you believe the way you do. My brain is slow at absorbing new thoughts...as I want to not only read but also understand.
So what do you think of the verse I quoted initially?
John 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
There are many verses also throughout the bible that also reference the body and soul being destroyed. If it is destroyed, then how is it reconciled to God? When we die our souls are still alive. When others die their souls are destroyed?
Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope*21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
*hope=elpis=expectation
I will have to read to remember where the reference is. But will do so and get back to you.
Could you give me these references? Thanks! God bless.
I'm happy to hear that you think this way. I'm afraid though, there are just so many out there who will think "okay, it doesn't matter what I do." I just don't think that God would want people to think this. I will have to read more tonight...so that I can see how you believe the way you do. My brain is slow at absorbing new thoughts...as I want to not only read but also understand.
Hi Sherry, I understand what you are saying, but the thing is, we cannot control how people respond. Unfortunately, there will always be people who seek to abuse the grace of God. The apostle Paul spoke about this reality. Those who believe in the eventual restoration of all to God do not encourage this kind of thinking. It is an indcation of the condition of their heart. We would hope that people would understand what Jesus suffered and went through for us and live their lives accordingly, as the scriptures teach us. There are also people who only come to God out of fear of what they believe to be eternal hell. Some have even said that if there was no eternal hell, they would not be Christians. What does this say about their hearts and understanding of what Jesus suffered for us?
Quote:
So what do you think of the verse I quoted initially?
John 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
There are many verses also throughout the bible that also reference the body and soul being destroyed. If it is destroyed, then how is it reconciled to God? When we die our souls are still alive. When others die their souls are destroyed?
[/quote]
The scriptures speak of destruction and restoration. God says, "I kill and I make alive." The earth itself is to be destroyed, yet there will be a new (qualitatively new) heavens and new earth. I believe that when we die, our souls die also. This is why we are to be raised to live when Jesus returns. What is the need of a resurrection if we automatically go to heaven when we die to live forever? There are many scriptures which speak of the soul dying when we die. God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Many will experience destruction in Gehenna, which is not eternal hell. Gehenna is a place on earth and many believe that it figuratively refers to punishment in the future. At any rate, it is not an eternal hell. Souls may be destroyed in Gehenna, but God has promised a reconcilation of all things to Himself. 1 Colossians 1 refers to this as do many scriptures. I will post a few below. God bless.
Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive
Psalms 66
4. "All the earth will worship You,
And will sing praises to You;
They will sing praises to Your name." Selah
Psalms 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there
Isaiah 25:6-8
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7. And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8. He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.
Isaiah 45:22-25
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23. "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24. "They will say of Me, `Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."
Zephaniah 3
8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
"For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
9. "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
To serve Him shoulder to shoulder
John 1:1-9
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2. He was in the beginning with God.3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.8. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 12:27-32
27. "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.28. "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."29. So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."30. Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.31. "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."
God bless.
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There are many scriptures which speak to this promise. 
But if need be, I can find it.
