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I'm not sure how much more plain I can make it: I...do...not...accept...fundamentalism. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, those false doctrines and rebellious people being referenced in those Scriptures could just as easily be referring to YOU, or Fundamentalist, and your doctrines. There is such a preponderance of differing interpretations and systems of theology within Christendom that it's absurd to think that any particular one of them have a handle on the truth.
I...trust...my...Lord...Jesus. I know what He shows me, and what He tells me about my spiritual walk.
Doesn't matter if you believe. There is only ONE truth. We can't all be right. either you are right and I am wrong or vice versa or both of us are wrong and someone else is right.
Adam only had to believe God existed, Abraham had more of a revelation than Adam, Moses had more of a revelation than Abraham with the Ten Commandments, The thief had the 10 commandements and the Torah. We today have the entire revelation. We do not qualify the same way Adam, Abrham, Moses, thief on the cross did.
Satan believed in Jesus, and knew He died for us and is our saviour, so why isn't Satan going to heaven?
You're not seriously asking that question...??
Uh.....because he does not profess Jesus as his Lord! The thief on the cross, in his very asking of Jesus to remember him in His Kingdom, was indicating He accepted what Jesus taught. The thief in the very simple words he spoke placed himself under Jesus' Lordship.
You seem to indicate that you believe in progressive revelation, Fundamentalist. How Catholic of you.
I'm aware that there is a huge amount of misinformation about us in circulation on the Web in particular.
"We believe in beinghonest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." 13th Article of Faith (LDS Church)
Of course every Latter-day Saint since the beginning has been a human being and subject to the foibles and weaknesses of human beings, so there will be some who may tell lies, as there are in all churches and organizations of human beings, but it's certainly not the norm among active Latter-day Saints.
Then perhaps you can clarify. If you are in a forum like this and someone sincerely asks about your beliefs and ask specific questions like whether according to Mormon beliefs Mormon believe Jesus and Satan are brothers or if Mormons believe they can be deities in the afterlife and rule over their own planets, do you answer honestly or do you avoid the possible convtroversy?
Uh.....because he does not profess Jesus as his Lord! The thief on the cross, in his very asking of Jesus to remember him in His Kingdom, was indicating He accepted what Jesus taught. The thief in the very simple words he spoke placed himself under Jesus' Lordship.
You seem to indicate that you believe in progressive revelation, Fundamentalist. How Catholic of you.
Not all men are held to the same standard. A new Christian is not held to the same standard as a Spirit-blessed teacher.
James 3 (New International Version)
James 3
Taming the Tongue
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
Then perhaps you can clarify. If you are in a forum like this and someone sincerely asks about your beliefs and ask specific questions like whether according to Mormon beliefs Mormon believe Jesus and Satan are brothers or if Mormons believe they can be deities in the afterlife and rule over their own planets, do you answer honestly or do you avoid the possible convtroversy?
Humans usually learn line upon line precept on precept similar to children advancing through grades and on into college and prerequisite courses for advanced college courses simply because we're not prepared for advanced learning until we've mastered or at least been exposed to the basics.
But sure, I always do my best to explain, though it doesn't often do much good for critics whose minds are closed and firmly believing in what's written on anti-Mormon websites and falsely taught about us by the pastors and leaders of certain churches. If you believe that Mormons lie about their beliefs then what good does it do for me to write about my beliefs?
But I've probably already addressed those specific questions in the "Ask a Mormon" forum on this board several times, and it's not on topic for this thread otherwise I'd do my best to respond accurately.
Humans usually learn line upon line precept on precept similar to children advancing through grades and on into college and prerequisite courses for advanced college courses simply because we're not prepared for advanced learning until we've mastered or at least been exposed to the basics.
But sure, I always do my best to explain, though it doesn't often do much good for critics whose minds are closed and firmly believing in what's written on anti-Mormon websites and falsely taught about us by the pastors and leaders of certain churches. If you believe that Mormons lie about their beliefs then what good does it do for me to write about my beliefs?
But I've probably already addressed those specific questions in the "Ask a Mormon" forum on this board several times, and it's not on topic for this thread otherwise I'd do my best to respond accurately.
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny Then she definitely was not raised Mormon. Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is perfect but the Bible is not.
wrong. mormons don't believe that the book of mormon is perfect. we believe that it is the most perfect book currently available to us. that does not make it perfect. do you understand that difference? i hope so, because that difference is what turns your claim into deceitful lies or ignorant misinformation.
so, which is it?
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Mormons are made mormons by proclaiming a belief in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. If she was baptized as Mormon she made that proclamation.
justin already shared with you the principles and ordinances that we believe are necessary for salvation through Christ. i'll take it for granted that you actually read through his post.
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She says she has never read the Book of Mormon but remember, Mormons are told to "lie for the Lord" - they're allowed to and even taught to tell lies to fool people if it might help convert them later, so she may just be saying that to not freak you out and to get you to accept her as a "Christian" so that it will be easier to convert you later.
please, i'm giddy with anticipation to see what your source is for this one. does it come from the same place as the mormon mafia rumors? or maybe the stories about mormons and their horns?
again: deliberate lie or ignorant misinformation. which is it?
maybe if you read 2nd nephi, you'll get an idea of what mormons believe about lying. it is certainly not condoned by our beliefs.
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Don't trust a Mormon one bit when it comes to spiritual things, they will deceive.
can i make that assumption about you too since i have already addressed two different lies in your single post? would i find other lies if i were to go through your posting history?
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Joseph Smith stated that all forms of Christianity had become apostate.
Do you not understand why we'd find issue with that?
yeah, i can understand it. can you understand that this doesn't mean you are subhuman or untouchable? if this is your justification for being condescending to mormons, it might behoove you to go read up a bit about bitterness and revenge.
we believe that we have living prophets that guide us. that means that we believe the rest of human philosophy to be flawed in one way or more. there is some truth everywhere, but we believe that the fullness of the truth will *only* be revealed through authorized prophets.
means that you, a nonmormon, are wrong in some areas that are important for eternal salvation. doesn't mean that you are unfit for salvation, or that you will be damned to hell. doesn't even mean that mormons need to be rude and judgmental to you. it just means that we think we have something that is vitally important to you.
now, if you want to be a part of the great w***e of all the earth, as it mentions in the book of mormon, be my guest. let me know when you come to a full understanding of the Spirit, and then reject it for the prestige and power of the world. until that time, you are a human, in need of guidance as much as i am.
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basically, i will just reiterate what i said earlier. i believe in Christ; i believe that He died for my sins and was resurrected in order to give me eternal life. i believe that my faith in Him is what allows me to accept His sacrifice despite my imperfections.
according to the dictionary, that makes me a christian. if that doesn't fit your personal, pet definition of christianity, so be it. i told you all earlier that such rejections don't matter to me in the least. it only proves that some people regard the Savior as the cheerleader for their kewl club, and nothing more. and if that is your view of religion, i don't want an "exclusive" pass to get in anyway.
My guess is that you are qualified to teach the beliefs of your own denomination but I am absolutely certain that you are not qualified to teach the religious beliefs and practices of the 13,500,000 members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
You may believe what you teach about us, but the fact is that you are teaching lies.
I've been a faithful member of the LDS Church for 42 years since my conversion from Roman Catholicism at age 22. I've traveled to and lived in many different countries, attended many Mormon temples many times, spoke with apostles and prophets, served a mission in Macau, China, and rub shoulders with Mormons every day. And in all that time I have never been taught to "lie for the Lord!"
Converts are "made Mormons" by following the four basic principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Repentance of our sins.
3. Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins.
4. The laying on of hands of the authorized Melchizedek Priesthood for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I think you have been deceived about us by the false teachings of paid ministers who think they have their livelihood and community status at stake because we're a missionary gospel sharing church, and by exposure to anti-Mormon media created by people who have no regard for the truth.
Instead of telling lies about Mormons why not tell us about the wonderful truths taught by your denomination's leaders that have brought you closer to your Savior?
Fair enough?
Greetings, justamere10: Your first basic principle for converts is what separates Mormonism from Christianity. Why can't you simply accept that? How is Christ the Lord of Mormonism, justamere10? Is he the spirit-brother of Satan? If you do not believe that than you must renounce the historic teachings of your own church! Was he conceived by Mary through the same means as all people are conceived--with your Father god being His actual father? Do you believe that? If not, will you renounce the historic teachings of Mormonism? Do you believe that as man is god once was and as god is man may become? If not, will you admit that your church falsely taught such a thing? Do you believe that there are many gods over many worlds but when Mormons claim to believe in one god, they mean that only in the sense that there is one over this world "with whom we have to do?" That is what your church teaches. If you do not believe these things, tell me when your church changed its teachings concerning them? Do you believe that there is a mother god and that she and your Father god have spirit children who occupy the physical bodies of those born here on the earth? That is your church's historical position. Such things are completely counter to the teachings of Christianity--they are considered blasphemous.
The Jesus of Christianity is fully God, come in the flesh, born of a virgin through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE God in three Persons. The Son did NOT have a beginning but has always existed. This God in Three Persons has always been and will always be. He is God over everything, everywhere, all at the same time! There are no other gods over other worlds! To teach such a thing is anti-Christian.
I do not understand, considering the vast differences between our understanding of the nature and person of Jesus and the God of the Bible, why Mormons have such a hard time with our criticisms. You simply believe in a vastly different Jesus. We cannot stop you from using the name "Christian," but we can certainly object to your attempting to place yourself in the realm of historic, biblical Christendom. This should not be viewed as mean-spirited (although some are certainly less than kind) but as an attempt on the part of Christians to protect their doctrinal distinctives in the same way Mormons do when others attack the teachings of Mormonism.
Again, I have no animosity towards Mormons, but I will boldly object to their claiming to be Christians when they do not acknowledge the Christ of the Bible. Why do you want to be one with us? Why can't you see the glaring and significant differences between us that prevent both of us from simultaneously claiming the same title? Could one rightfully call himself a Mormon while believing that Joseph Smith was a fraud and a charlatan? Could someone claim to be a Mormon yet vehemently disagree with the Doctrine and Covenants and find the Book of Mormon to be a book of fiction? Could someone justifiably call himself a Mormon and consider Brigham Young to be a false teacher and false prophet? Such a claim would be ridiculous--as ridiculous as a Mormon calling himself a Christian.
Go ahead and call yourself a Mormon and I'll call myself a Christian. The two are totally incompatible!
yeah, i can understand it. can you understand that this doesn't mean you are subhuman or untouchable? if this is your justification for being condescending to mormons, it might behoove you to go read up a bit about bitterness and revenge.
Nobody is being "condescending" to suggest that you are not a Christian. The founder of your church said the same thing to all the Christian denominations 150 years ago.
Joseph Smith stated that all forms of Christianity had become apostate.
Do you not understand why we'd find issue with that?
I'm not sure who you are speaking for by using the word "we" but I will respond to your question.
Yes, of course I understand that you would take issue with the teachings of your denomination being called apostate.
There are apparently more than 10,000 Christian churches today, most of them probably believing that they've got the truth because of their interpretation of or emphasis on a few verses from the bible. And each member of those churches would take issue if a member of another church believed that their interpretation of scripture was incorrect.
Joseph Smith at 14 years old decided to apply the advice found in James 1:5 and went to the woods alone to ask God which church he should join. God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to the young boy, standing in the air in glory. They told him that he was to join no existing church, that he was to be the prophet of the restoration in these the fulness of times and would be responsible for the restoration of the pure doctrines and priesthood authority that were lost when the early apostles were killed.
You can read Joseph's account at the following link:
To me it only makes sense that though there would be truth found in all churches God would have only one that is HIS alone. The Lord established only one church with himself at the head and apostles at the foundation. It seems likely that he would do that again if his apostles had been killed and the pure doctrines altered over the years.
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism," Ephesians 4: 5
"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" Ephesians 1: 10
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