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Wow, lots of words, please try to keep it simple or I can't really respond.
The Holy Bible is one of the books in the LDS canon. The Jesus Christ I know is the Jesus Christ written of in the Holy Bible. You seem to think you believe in a different Jesus. I was not aware of there being a second Savior and Redeemer of all mankind. Please explain your belief, thanks.
Sorry, justamere10, I don't understand what you mean by "second Savior and Redeemer of all mankind." When did I say that?
I didn't know I was being too complicated. I was merely asking if you believed your own doctrines. Let me rephrase my questions.
1. Is Jesus the spirit-brother of Satan as Mormonism teaches?
2. Was Jesus conceived by the normal means of conception between "father" in heaven and Mary?
3. Was there a time when Jesus came into existence--in other words, is Jesus other than eternal?
4. Was the Mormon god once a man and can a man become a "god?"
5. Are there gods of other worlds (the Mormon god being just one of them)?
6. Does "god" have a body of flesh and bone?
7. Is there a mother god who has spirit babies to inhabit babies born on earth?
These are all Mormon teachings, justamere10. We DO believe in a different Jesus and a different God!
justamere10, these things are essential to true saving faith. Jesus is the Creator of all things (Colossians 1). He existed throughout all eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit--the Triune God. It was not a mere perfect man who died on that cross for sinners but also the very God of very God (fully man and fully God)! Jesus left His eternal glory and eternal equality with the Father and condescended to a point we can only imagine to give His life as a ransom for the lost. He is over and above and within and without all the countless galaxies of the universes which He Himself spoke into existence. From there He came to this mere speck in the scheme of it all (the great I AM) and became an embryo in the womb of a woman He Himself created! From her human womb, He was born. He, the God of all creation, nursed at her breasts, totally dependent upon her for sustenance! He became a man but never lost His deity. In this deity, He calmed storms, healed the sick, raised the dead. That is the Jesus of the Bible; that is the Jesus of Christianity; that is our great God and Savior!
What is my purpose, justamere10, in saying these things? Is it to argue and to win a debate? No! These are matters of eternal consequence. There is no other name given by which you must by saved, justamere10. But you must understand the Person behind the name you call upon or you call in vain. It is my sincere prayer that you will renounce the errors of Mormonism and its false Jesus and trust in the true Jesus of the Bible. Then and only then will you be changed forever, made a new creation, and given eternal life. The Apostle John wrote: "These things have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life" (1 John 5:13).
Isn't there something in the New Testament about Jesus being conceived and born of Mary? Were not Mary and God the Father the creators of the physical body of Jesus?
Who conceived His spirit, justamere10? Was it Mother god and Father god who are the gods over this world in which we live?
How, according to Mormonism, did this creation of Jesus' physical body take place, justamere10? Did the Mormon "Father" who is flesh and bones have actual intercourse with Mary? The Mormon teaching on this matter places it far outside the realm of Christianity.
Jesus was the FULFILLMENT of the scriptures. Jesus is the end product and the establishment of the Second Convenent between God and man. Since He is the fulfillment, then there is no need for more prophets or more revelation. He was all that was missing from the First Convenent. That's it. If you believe that Jesus didn't finish the job, then you as a default believe that Jesus was incomplete and therefore imperfect. Since he is fully man and fully God, then he certainly was perfect.
Bottom line, file your extra Mormon book and your 19th century revelations in a file marked "Not Required".
Jesus did fulfill prophecy regarding him up to the time of his death and resurrection. There are yet prophecies that must be fulfilled by him, including his glorious "second coming."
Jesus did complete the atoning sacrifice on behalf of all of God's children.
The Book of Mormon was written by prophets and descendents of prophets who migrated from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 BC. Their record is just as valid as those of the prophets and writers of the books that were included in what we call today the Bible.
But you of course are free to choose to believe that the bible is all we're ever going to get from God, that He ceases to speak to His children on earth anymore (as arrogant scholars say he must) and that all the other books left out by the scholars who compiled the bible, and God's prophets everywhere else are irrelevant.
I personally know the Book of Mormon to be another testament of Jesus Christ similar to the bible.
Have you ever read the book you condemn so harshly?
Sorry, justamere10, I don't understand what you mean by "second Savior and Redeemer of all mankind." When did I say that?
I didn't know I was being too complicated. I was merely asking if you believed your own doctrines. Let me rephrase my questions.
1. Is Jesus the spirit-brother of Satan as Mormonism teaches?
2. Was Jesus conceived by the normal means of conception between "father" in heaven and Mary?
3. Was there a time when Jesus came into existence--in other words, is Jesus other than eternal?
4. Was the Mormon god once a man and can a man become a "god?"
5. Are there gods of other worlds (the Mormon god being just one of them)?
6. Does "god" have a body of flesh and bone?
7. Is there a mother god who has spirit babies to inhabit babies born on earth?
These are all Mormon teachings, justamere10. We DO believe in a different Jesus and a different God!
justamere10, these things are essential to true saving faith. Jesus is the Creator of all things (Colossians 1). He existed throughout all eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit--the Triune God. It was not a mere perfect man who died on that cross for sinners but also the very God of very God (fully man and fully God)! Jesus left His eternal glory and eternal equality with the Father and condescended to a point we can only imagine to give His life as a ransom for the lost. He is over and above and within and without all the countless galaxies of the universes which He Himself spoke into existence. From there He came to this mere speck in the scheme of it all (the great I AM) and became an embryo in the womb of a woman He Himself created! From her human womb, He was born. He, the God of all creation, nursed at her breasts, totally dependent upon her for sustenance! He became a man but never lost His deity. In this deity, He calmed storms, healed the sick, raised the dead. That is the Jesus of the Bible; that is the Jesus of Christianity; that is our great God and Savior!
What is my purpose, justamere10, in saying these things? Is it to argue and to win a debate? No! These are matters of eternal consequence. There is no other name given by which you must by saved, justamere10. But you must understand the Person behind the name you call upon or you call in vain. It is my sincere prayer that you will renounce the errors of Mormonism and its false Jesus and trust in the true Jesus of the Bible. Then and only then will you be changed forever, made a new creation, and given eternal life. The Apostle John wrote: "These things have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life" (1 John 5:13).
Please consider these things, my friend!
Preterist
Another long post with many questions to respond to!
But you appear sincere and you write respectfully so I'll do my best in the limited time I have to address at least some of your concerns about my beliefs.
1. I believe that the universe, planets, everything is just a family affair, a God raising His children and providing places for them to learn to 'grow up' and become as He is, similar to the way earthly children grow, learn, and become like the parents of their physical bodies.
I believe that God the Father created billions of spirit children. He is God to those children because He is literally their Parent. His firstborn spirit child is the one we know today as Jesus Christ. Another was the fallen one we know today as Lucifer or Satan. EVERY human being who has ever lived and lives on this planet (including you and me) is also a spirit brother or sister of both Jesus Christ and Satan. That is my belief.
2. I am not aware of any official LDS teaching about how God the Father impregnated Mary with the one who would become Jesus the Christ. The Lord has not as yet chosen to reveal that to his servants the prophets, it is certainly not essential to our salvation to know that.
3. See item 1 but keep in mind that in LDS canon it is revealed that we are all co-eternal with God in the form of what is sometimes called "intelligence" which has always existed and which animates spirit bodies perhaps (my conjecture) similar to the way a spirit animates and gives life to a physical body like a hand inside a glove. (But we're moving waaay beyond the basics of the gospel and what is required to gain salvation here, there are many prerequisites to understanding such things and no real need to at this time in our existence.)
4. I believe that we are spirit children of a Heavenly Parent and that we have the potential to 'grow up' and become like Him. I am not aware of anything in LDS canon that clearly says that Heavenly Father once lived on an earth like this one, but there are some non-canonical sayings to that effect. With my limited human understanding of where we came from, why we are here on this earth, and where we're going after we complete our mortal experience, it seems logical that He did.
5. We have only ONE Heavenly Father and He is our God! (Just as human beings have only one natural father of their physical body.)
6. I believe that God does have a glorious resurrected body of flesh and bone, the same as does Jesus Christ His son.
7. I am not aware of anything in LDS canon that clearly states that we have a Heavenly Mother. But to me it would be ludicrous to think that we do not. Where there is a father, there is a mother. Seems simple enough to me.
There, I have candidly and I think clearly stated some of my beliefs in response to your questions. My guess is that you will now attempt to formulate your own interpretations of scripture from the bible to make a case that I am somehow not a Christian.
If you do, so be it, that's the way you are. I am perfectly content to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to believe as I do that the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ stands at the head of his restored Church today and speaks to his living prophet and apostles, as he did anciently.
Sorry, justamere10, I don't understand what you mean by "second Savior and Redeemer of all mankind." When did I say that?
Perhaps you did not say that, I have limited time to spend on this board and didn't look back to check if it was you.
I was referring to the fact that some fellow followers of Jesus Christ often write that Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus Christ as they do. Ergo, they must think that there are two (or more) Saviors. I asked for an explanation of that 'other' Savior after stating that the Jesus Christ I follow is the one written of in the Holy Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquila Is that another one of your manmade doctrines, Fundamentalist? I don't see anything in the Bible that mentions why the thief on the cross was provided an exception.
And remember your mottos..."Scripture interprets Scripture"...and..."No authority outside the Bible".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Adam only had to believe God existed, Abraham had more of a revelation than Adam, Moses had more of a revelation than Abraham with the Ten Commandments, The thief had the 10 commandements and the Torah. We today have the entire revelation. We do not qualify the same way Adam, Abrham, Moses, thief on the cross did.
Satan believed in Jesus, and knew He died for us and is our saviour, so why isn't Satan going to heaven?
I got to page five of the conversation when I saw this (of course mentioned more than once)
Fundamentalist: I was Baptized in a Fundamental Baptist Church and I recognize the thief on the cross. My Grandmother was, you've heard the term stiff necked Baptist that would be her.
"Even on your death bed, drawing your last breath, a person comes to know the spirit of Christ, with an honest heart and all humility and humble before Him in tacked, He will remember that person in His Father's House. His soul is saved for all eternity."
Now you're going to tell me, that is wrong. Since we have a lifetime of chances yet refused them, we can not repent on our dying breath. (Revelations preceding?)
I'm sticking with what is in my heart on this one Fundamentalist, as the Lord in my heart, He has not let me down yet. Nor any one else, for that matter.
Another long post with many questions to respond to!
But you appear sincere and you write respectfully so I'll do my best in the limited time I have to address at least some of your concerns about my beliefs.
1. I believe that the universe, planets, everything is just a family affair, a God raising His children and providing places for them to learn to 'grow up' and become as He is, similar to the way earthly children grow, learn, and become like the parents of their physical bodies.
I believe that God the Father created billions of spirit children. He is God to those children because He is literally their Parent. His firstborn spirit child is the one we know today as Jesus Christ. Another was the fallen one we know today as Lucifer or Satan. EVERY human being who has ever lived and lives on this planet (including you and me) is also a spirit brother or sister of both Jesus Christ and Satan. That is my belief.
2. I am not aware of any official LDS teaching about how God the Father impregnated Mary with the one who would become Jesus the Christ. The Lord has not as yet chosen to reveal that to his servants the prophets, it is certainly not essential to our salvation to know that.
3. See item 1 but keep in mind that in LDS canon it is revealed that we are all co-eternal with God in the form of what is sometimes called "intelligence" which has always existed and which animates spirit bodies perhaps (my conjecture) similar to the way a spirit animates and gives life to a physical body like a hand inside a glove. (But we're moving waaay beyond the basics of the gospel and what is required to gain salvation here, there are many prerequisites to understanding such things and no real need to at this time in our existence.)
4. I believe that we are spirit children of a Heavenly Parent and that we have the potential to 'grow up' and become like Him. I am not aware of anything in LDS canon that clearly says that Heavenly Father once lived on an earth like this one, but there are some non-canonical sayings to that effect. With my limited human understanding of where we came from, why we are here on this earth, and where we're going after we complete our mortal experience, it seems logical that He did.
5. We have only ONE Heavenly Father and He is our God! (Just as human beings have only one natural father of their physical body.)
6. I believe that God does have a glorious resurrected body of flesh and bone, the same as does Jesus Christ His son.
7. I am not aware of anything in LDS canon that clearly states that we have a Heavenly Mother. But to me it would be ludicrous to think that we do not. Where there is a father, there is a mother. Seems simple enough to me.
There, I have candidly and I think clearly stated some of my beliefs in response to your questions. My guess is that you will now attempt to formulate your own interpretations of scripture from the bible to make a case that I am somehow not a Christian.
If you do, so be it, that's the way you are. I am perfectly content to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to believe as I do that the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ stands at the head of his restored Church today and speaks to his living prophet and apostles, as he did anciently.
ALL Christians, including Catholics, Baptists, etc. are Latter-day saints. It's just that the Salt Lake sect doesn't allow anyone but their own sect members (paid membership) into their secret temples.
For some reason the Salt Lake sect hates everyone.
Joseph Smith at 14 years old decided to apply the advice found in James 1:5 and went to the woods alone to ask God which church he should join. God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to the young boy, standing in the air in glory. They told him that he was to join no existing church, that he was to be the prophet of the restoration in these the fulness of times and would be responsible for the restoration of the pure doctrines and priesthood authority that were lost when the early apostles were killed.
And if I told you that Christ spoke to me, and said for me, "to tell America they are to ask for forgiveness", you would not call me a prophet, you would call me crazy.
So how is it Joseph Smith is to be believed of sound mind and deemed a prophet?
I believe that God the Father created billions of spirit children. He is God to those children because He is literally their Parent. His firstborn spirit child is the one we know today as Jesus Christ. Another was the fallen one we know today as Lucifer or Satan. EVERY human being who has ever lived and lives on this planet (including you and me) is also a spirit brother or sister of both Jesus Christ and Satan. That is my belief.
justamere10, this is just one of many doctrinal issues that create a divide between the mainstream Protestant churches and the LDS church. The Bible says that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. I used to be a member of the Mormon church and this is just one of the issues I had with the doctrine that led to my leaving.
Jesus did fulfill prophecy regarding him up to the time of his death and resurrection. There are yet prophecies that must be fulfilled by him, including his glorious "second coming."
Jesus did complete the atoning sacrifice on behalf of all of God's children.
The Book of Mormon was written by prophets and descendents of prophets who migrated from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 BC. Their record is just as valid as those of the prophets and writers of the books that were included in what we call today the Bible.
But you of course are free to choose to believe that the bible is all we're ever going to get from God, that He ceases to speak to His children on earth anymore (as arrogant scholars say he must) and that all the other books left out by the scholars who compiled the bible, and God's prophets everywhere else are irrelevant.
I personally know the Book of Mormon to be another testament of Jesus Christ similar to the bible.
Have you ever read the book you condemn so harshly?
I can only say my peace. I believe the Mormon reality is completely fictional. No historical or artifact evidence of any kind for the people and cities in your new book. There is countless historical and artifact evidence for the people and cities in the original Bible. This is America and you are free to believe in what you believe. I just think you folks have been completely duped.
May the Lord's peace be with you.
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I don't see anything in the Bible that mentions why the thief on the cross was provided an exception.
Since we have a lifetime of chances yet refused them, we can not repent on our dying breath. (Revelations preceding?)
